Counterstrike and Full Defense..., Attention all rules lawyers! Options

[TechnoDruid]

Okay, so I was running a game tonight (actually, it was more of a ten hour character creation session, with 4 of those hours debating the rules of the above mentioned adept power), and some concerns came up.

Turn one, opponent goes first, and adept goes into full defense (parry with sword), and scores 4 successes. Now, it is the adepts turn, but having used his action to go into full defense, we go back to his opponent. His opponent strikes, and this time, the adept parries (not full parry) and scores 2 successes. Now, the Counter Strike rules state that the dice gained must be used in retaliation on the adepts next available action, or be lost. Would the adept gain both sets of dice, the 4 and the 2?

It's incredibly late, so if I'm a bit vague, bear with me. Sleep deprivation does amazing things to the mind... :D

[Cabral]

Technically? the adept would attack on his next turn with a dice pool bonus of his couterstrike level +4 or +2.

It says the bonus is equal to counterstrike level plus the net hits on "the parry or block", singular. Conceptually, he would be restricted to the using the 2 net hits bonus because the opponent's 4 net hit bonus momentum is no longer present to be exploited.

So, the way I'd run it is: Counterstrike grants a bonus of Counterstrike level + net hits on the most recent block or parry test if the adept attacks that opponent.

Similarly, if 6 people attacked the adept and he scored one net hit against each of them, he couldn't on his next available action attack one of them with a bonus of CS level +6.

[Critias]

Yeah. I always figured it was on "the most recent block or parry for the target he's now counterstriking against."

[Teulisch]

you argued with a player for 4 hours about that little power? and it was chargen? dont let em walk all over ya man. make a ruling, say thats how it works, and move on. (be sure to write it down so you dont forget). say its a houserule if you need to.

personaly, i would say 'most recent only' is a good approach to it. if he wants to keep the first roll of 4, then his next defense should be a dodge.

[Taki]

If the rules states that the dices gained must be used "on next available action", then the character can only used that bonus on his the next action (if it is a melee attack), otherwise the dices are lost.

[Clyde]

You may need to dump this player. Don't take a four hour rules argument, period. Make your ruling, then offer the player an option to drop the Counter Strike power if he doesn't like how it works now.

I mean, what the heck was everybody else doing during this? How much fun was it for them to sit there? That kind of behavior shouldn't be acceptable.

[Cabral]

I disagree. I depends on the nature of the "argument".

If you had a 4 hour rules debate because everyone is fairly new to setting and were unsure about how the power works, then this could be quite healthy.

If you had a four hour argument that involved more shouting than would be considered polite because your player saw it one way, you saw it another, and noone was bending, then this is likely someone to drop from the group if you can't reform him.

It depends where on (or off) this spectrum you and your player sit. Will he impede and disrupt the game? Is he okay with "This is how I'm ruling it now; we can look it up later"?

[TechnoDruid]

Actuallly, the argument itself was civil. It wasn't between me and a player persay, as much as it was the whole group (a State computer tech {me}, a Federal computer tech, a bio chemist, a corrections officer, and a professional student), debating various sides of the issue. That sort of thing I do encourage. Besides, we set aside last night specifically for char gen, so no harm done, or time lost. :D I do thank everyone for their input, as it has been most helpful. :)

Oh, and for the record, we've been running the core of the group for well over ten years, so my players know what I say is law, and any disruptions over the last few years have led back to that statement. Unless, of course, I am proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. I am fortunate enough to have a great group that listens, but also thinks things through. It's good to be the GM... :D

[Cabral]

*Starts planning run to "extract" TechnoDruid's players ... realizes he wants to play and plans run to "extract" TechnoDruid ...*

[lorechaser]

Those are the good kinds of debates.

"Wait, wait, so what actually defines an action?" *flip flip flip* "Oh, it's...." "Really? I didn't know that. Is jumping an action?" "Let's check...."

[Aaron]

The beautiful thing about being able to admit that one is wrong is that the moment that happens, one is right.

[hobgoblin]

[warrior_allanon]

i would say only the 2 because of it meaning the attack that was parried in that pass

[Dread Polack]

Yeah, I'd say he only gets the +2, but if the player spends an edge to go first, or otherwise is able to gain initiative over his opponent, he could obviously use the +4 instead. Usually, I'd imagine this isn't a good use of Edge.

Dread Polack

[Cabral]

To further complicate the matter, I would say if he was attacked be several people and Parried for 4 net hits, 2 nets, and then dodged for 3 net hits in that order, he could not counterstrike as his most recent defense was a dodge.

If he wants to focus on an opponent using counterstrike, he'd have to delay his counterattack until after defending versus that foe.