 Jamming, Why a specific "jammer" device? |
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 Sep 5 2006, 10:56 AM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948  |
Now, I’m far from being even a novice when it comes to ECM and ECCM but isn’t signal jamming essentially that you send out random noise interference?
According to the RAW you need a Jammer of some kind to even use Electronic Warfare but wouldn’t just a transmitter be enough? Shouldn’t for example a Drone be able to jam an area by simply going there and transmitting static over all available channels? Am I missing something here? |
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Sep 5 2006, 11:34 AM
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#2
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The incredible advance in wireless technology? Obviously, the new protocols are incredibly resistant to noise and interference - and thus, jamming. (That would explain the very limited range and capability of jammers...)
You can successfully 'suppress' a certain connection if you manage to grab it with Electronic Warfare, though. |
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Sep 5 2006, 01:23 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,486 Joined: 17-March 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,180 |
Agreed with the above. You cant' really approach SR4 technology by comparing it to modern day stuff or a lot of it doesn't make any sense.
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Sep 5 2006, 04:07 PM
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#4
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
While this is true, physics isn't going to change just because it's The Future. That being said, though, having a more advanced algorithm for dealing with background noise, especially in a world where damn near everything is broadcasting something, makes sense. |
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Sep 5 2006, 04:17 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Ha!
Physics won't change. 100 years ago, gravity was a force. Now it's just the bending of space. 100 years ago, nothing could exist in two places at the same time. Now we can't even tell how many places it's in at once, because we mess things up by measuring. 100 years ago, there were 3 dimensions. Now there are what, 28? 2800? A bazillion? Physics changes all the time. ;) |
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Sep 5 2006, 04:25 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,063 |
Too true, too true. And that's why I'm never taking another physics course. :D
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Sep 5 2006, 04:25 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
ECCM is more about pattern recognition software i think.
while technicaly you could jam with a transmitter, it wouldnt be very effective. A jammer is not just boradcasting static- its putting forth a kind of 'white noise' designed to mess with other signals, over a wide range of channels. and as pattern recognition gets better, you need better white noise to stop it. |
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Sep 5 2006, 04:27 PM
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#8
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Now it's both - and, for the fun of it, it bends time, too.
It's even worse - it happens without measuring...
About eleven, IIRC.
Especially in Universes the Technocracy is involved with. ;) |
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Sep 5 2006, 07:08 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 29-July 06 From: Orlando, FL Member No.: 8,981 |
Actually Gravity is still a force, its just the weakest of all forces. And anything beyond 3 dimensions is still a theory, string theory I believe goes up to 11 dimensions. String Theory sounds extremely iffy to me. if your at all interested you can get a good generalization from this guy. http://www.tenthdimension.com/ --------- Since we're on the topic of iffy science there is always the standard model. Summary of standard Model: We can't figure out why everything is moving the way it does in the universe, lets make this stuff up called dark matter and say it makes bodies move they way they do. Shoot theres not enough of it lets make something else up called Dark Energy to fill in the gaps. |
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Sep 5 2006, 07:17 PM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
nah. there's really no reason to assume that any given model of drone will have the ability to transmit on that broad a range of frequencies. in order to limit production costs, the transceiving capabilities of most drones are probably limited to the bare minimum required for actual operation. |
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Sep 5 2006, 07:46 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,812 |
Couldn't DOS (Denial of service) attacks be rolled up into ECM attacks? If all drones, comm links or any other electronic device are nothing more than nodes on the matrix, why can't you use DOS tactics to "jam" them? A node can only accept so many connections.
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Sep 5 2006, 07:50 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 29-July 06 From: Orlando, FL Member No.: 8,981 |
I don't believe that Drones are actually nodes in the matrix. There is a direct communication with comlink and drone. And if a Drone is outside of the comlinks range it outside of communication range. I think you can optionally make a drone matrix compatible though. Please correct me if I'm wrong I'm not an expert on the matter. |
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Sep 5 2006, 08:08 PM
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#13
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Drones are nodes, and nodes can communicate directly or through routing.
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Sep 5 2006, 08:23 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
The subscription rule might hinder this. If many things are trying to connect to a node (the target) I doubt SR nodes will crash or slow in response. When you reach your subscription limit you just don't accept anything else, not crash. |
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Sep 5 2006, 08:29 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hm, good point. forgot about the whole mesh network thing.
i just read the jamming rules in SR4. i don't like 'em. jamming is most certainly not something that you need special, restricted equipment for; it's something anybody can do by accident. as it stands, jamming in SR4 doesn't obey the laws of physics. you've got several choices: you can handwave the laws of physics and use the rules as-is, or you can create a houserule that makes sense. if i were going to make a houserule, i'd say that anything with a Signal rating can be used as if it were a jammer with a device rating of (Signal -2) or somesuch. if you wanted the jamming rules to make even more sense, you'd have jammers (purpose-built and improvised) not simply block traffic, but instead create static zones. in thise version, static zones should not be limited to a maximum of -3. i'd say a jammer creates a static zone equal to its rating, with hits on an EW test adding to the static zone rating. |
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Sep 5 2006, 10:13 PM
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#16
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Wow, that's a really good rule.
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Sep 5 2006, 10:31 PM
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#17
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Otherwise, we would be back to the times when a 5kg Box would kill about gridguide, cellphones and vehicle sensors in Downtown... not acceptable in the wireless setting. |
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Sep 5 2006, 11:13 PM
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#18
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
or atleast our perception of time. its just like the speed of light, we cant observe anything that moves faster then it, but that isnt the same as nothing being able to move faster then it. allso, there are two kinds of physics right now. the clean and "simple" one that newton started to define and eintein extended upon. and then there is the quantum one thats so wierd that i sometimes suspect that you need to be drunk on abshint to understand it, or maybe loaded up on lsd? and then we have these interesting areas where those two interact... as for jamming. im hoping that unwired will expand on that topic just like rigger3 did with rules for hot-mike and other classics... |
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Sep 5 2006, 11:28 PM
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#19
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's been tested with an atom clock on a plane - it really changes the flow of time.
Given the model is correct, it's flatout impossible: While trying to reach c, mass will approximate to infinite while acceleration would require infinite energy - and if you really reach c, there is a division by zero. Going beyond that point would simply produce near-infinite amounts of energy due to the shift in algebraic sign. |
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Sep 6 2006, 12:22 AM
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#20
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
heh, you got me on those it appears.
alltho, could it be that the atomic clock allso "observes time", and adjusts itself based on that? nah, that would move into the realm of metaphysics. as for faster then the speed of light, what if there is zero mass to begin with? or can there not be zero mass? or will the acceleration in effect "create" mass? yep, i dont realy have much of a clue. i have no real education in this area, just a interest for some reason. |
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Sep 6 2006, 01:12 AM
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#21
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
You make that sound like a bad thing. Creating ubiquitous wireless access should have drawbacks because wireless networks aren't exactly the be-all and end-all of technology. |
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Sep 6 2006, 01:19 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
My suggestion for explaining the need for special equipment to jam is thus:
Everything in 2070 that broadcasts with a signal that could interfere with other signals is hardwired not to. You can pick up jamming equipment to jam signals, or you can try to circumvent the hardwired protection, but in that case your really kitbashing jamming equipment from pieces of your TV, satelite decoder and TiVo ... |
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Sep 6 2006, 01:48 AM
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#23
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that... um... that might make sense. maybe. you'd have to do it by using timed microburst transmissions. basically, every time you transmit, you're actually starting and stopping transmission a few hundred times per second, with lots and lots of microsecond gaps in your transmission. other transceivers within signal range would, if they're transmitting on your frequency, automatically do so in the timed gaps between your transmissions. there would be timing issues you'd need to work out, once you start looking at encryption, since even the most rudimentary transmission encryption is going to use signal hopping--changing the channel a few hundred times per second, and setting your receivers to change channel on the same schedule.
i don't know enough about transceiver technology to say whether that'd actually work or not, though. and even if things do work that way, it'd be child's play to rig any transmitter to not use microburst transmissions. you could probably even do it through software, if you were slick enough. none of which explains the incredibly tiny range of jammers in SR4, though. that's just lunaticocity. |
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Sep 6 2006, 01:50 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 14-September 05 Member No.: 7,744 |
Wireless technology wouldn't be as ubiquitous as it is in 2070 if they hadn't solved that problem. A single transmitter trying to jam a signal isn't going to produce anywhere near as much noise as the sheer mass of wireless signals broadcasting all at once in the average metropolis. I imagine most technology in 2070 is frequency agile and probably has some sort of smart algorithm for weeding out the signal from the background noise. In short, the antijamming capability of the average piece of tech is roughly equal to its jamming capability. You need special equipment to drown out the signal.
That's just my theory. |
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Sep 6 2006, 04:14 AM
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#25
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Right. It's beyond the realm of comprehension that no one who developed this particular area of SR overlooked the failings behind such a system. That's like when I asked someone what frequency WiMatrix broadcasts on, they essentially said "all of them," which is stupid if you factor in the entirety of the EM spectrum, and even if you limit it to radio it makes little sense since bandwidth is not consistent across all frequencies. |
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