Spirits vs. Normal Weapons, Not-so-Immunity Options

[GrinderTheTroll]

It's always been expressed that Spirits are creatures of shadow and quicksilver, blah blah, and that anyone brash enough to face one is truely couragous, blah blah blah. So my disappointment is that all the fluff aside, Immunity to Normal Weapons isn't very effective for Spirits < Rating 5 or so.

With the power granting (Force/Essence/Magic)x2 Armor (sorry I can't recall which but they are all the same for Spirits) that gives a Force-4 8/8 armor which isn't much better than an Armor Jacket. Considering Attributes into the mix, they are usually a watered down samurai.

Now I understand that if I wanted a beefcake Spirit, I'd need a Rating-5+ but with all the whoo-ha over Immunity, lower Rating Spirits are not much more than target dummies.

And the whole "Force of Personality" angle makes little sence unless you've got no combat skills which applies more likely to Hackers and Mages (and of the latter) get to add Banishing dice and probably have a 3+ Charisma to boot.

Fluff aside, the Crunch here has me boggling a little about how Immune-to-Normal-Weapons Spirits really are at Force <5.

[Nim]

It's a little better than an armored jacket; if memory serves, it's hardened armor. And that's also before applying any defensive spirit powers. Still, it's a valid point.

[DireRadiant]

[Demerzel]

Well, assume you have a 4p light pistol, you'd need 5 net hits to damage a force 4 spirit. If you have a 6p ares alpha combat gun you'd still need (ap -1) 2 net hits (burst modifiers don't apply to determine if you bypass armor.) Then that force 4 spirit still gets 12 dice to soak.

Okay, so that's just target practice.

Consider the engulf power. Use it once, and take a party member out of the fight. They are taking damage every time the spirit gets an action so twice per turn, and cannot take any action other than try to break free.

The closest I've ever come to killing my players occured when the Bear Shaman tried to call a force 5 earth spirit, critically glitched the drain resistance roll and I ruled that he as KOed and the spirit goes on a rampage. He had 2 street sam types watching over him with combat axes and they both got engulfed and made insignificant as they were unable to break out of a force 5 engulf. The combat mage heard the scream and came in astrally on his initiative pass and dispatched the spirit, but bearly in time as 4 of the PCs were engulfed and nearly dead. The Shaman has 1 physical box left, the two sams were both severly damaged, and the drone rigger was in overflow.

It's all about circumstance. If you stand and let me shoot at you I'll win. If as a GM you say, "There is a spirit materialized and rushing towards you across this large open space. Roll your firearms." Then the spirit is going to have troubble. but if you GM the spirit as a clever adversary, aware of his abilities and limitations. And the summoner likewise, then even moderate force spirits can pose problems.

[Prime Mover]

Yes the immunity to normal weapons applies to all weapons that are not magical in nature including adept powers. Armor rating is equal to twice its rating and counted as "hardened". (If DV does not exceed spirits armor rating equal to double its Magic attribute , attack automaticaly does no damage)

[Slithery D]

Yes, it's hardened. Using an Ares Predator against a Force 4 fire spirit you need to score a modified DV of 8 (beating armor 8 - 1 AP) from your base DV of 5. Can you get three net hits against the spirit's Reaction of 7? Sometimes. The rest of the time it takes zero damage. Bigger weapons and better ammo will make it easier, but Force 5 spirits, easy right out of character creation, will take away some of that advantage, and Force 6 will be typical for prorunners who've earned a decent amount of karma.

I rather like it. At higher force levels you either can't hurt them at all or you take them out with one or two golden bullets. Magic, dude, it's so far out.

[Slithery D]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[thephoenix]

Since this is a game, you need some way for non-magical players to be able to damage spirits. The rules at least give them a chance to inflict damage on the spirit. In game terms, any shadowrun team should only have one to two magic users at most, if any, they are suppose to be rare. Granted this isn't always the case. If they were totally immune to weapons without a way to get around it, you would present the problem that no player would go on runs that might involve a magical user. It would simply be to dangerous and would force the player to rely on the magic user of the group who would then have to focus his attention on another magical user and a spirit at the same time.

[Demerzel]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[knasser]

[Demerzel]

Yup. I think in my mind I just substituted the Hardened Armor text in to the immunity text since they are so close.

[GrinderTheTroll]

Thanks for clarifying that. I read a bit too hastily.