Is magic broken? Options

[James McMurray]

You definitely screwed him. If you're going to play that spell radii aren't knowable in advance you'll need to make a house rule to reflect it. I'd suggest either varying radii randomly or using a methos similar to grenade-like weapons for spell placement if you don't like the idea of caster knowing exactly where to put their nukes..

[Butterblume]

There is no reliable way to measure the distance to something that isn't there (aka empty space). With rangefinder etc. I would allow to measure to distance to a point on the (back)ground, but those aren't empty spaces.

[JonathanC]

I'm just saying, it seems odd to be targeting a spot in the middle of the air. It also makes single target spells, particularly the rules on using them to hit more than one person, kinda useless. For the record, it didn't make a whole lot of difference. He killed the two earth elementals with a force 10 ball lightning spell with no drain, so don't cry for him. ;)


On another note...if we're talking about a dude with a Logic of 1 (about to be raised to 2), would he even be capable of the basic math involved?

[Steak and Spirit...]

[James McMurray]

Have him make a logic test and use that to determine if scatter occurs. If he gets a hit then it doesn't, if he doesn't the spell scatters 1d2 meters.

[Steak and Spirit...]

Better yet. Roll 2d6 to determine scatter. Roll 1d6 to determine scatter direction.

Use Logic + (SomethingThatDealsWithRangesLikePhysicsOrBallistics?) and reduce scatter by 2 meters per success.

[James McMurray]

That's way too much. With that setup the spell could easily land thirty feet away from it's intended target.

[JonathanC]

I'm probably going to keep it simple. The thing is, it does kinda irk me to see two logic 1 characters planning heists like they're in Ocean's Eleven or something. I feel like a jerk for busting the players' chops, but then, they're the ones who gave themselves logic 1 and a ton of charisma. I like the logic test/d2 scatter idea. I'm not really buying the whole "my goggles can calculate for me" idea, especially given that neither of them has DNI with their commlinks...how are they targeting anything?

edit: To be more specific, I was wondering how they would be communicating with the goggles/commlink to identify the target, but nevermind. Smartlinked goggles would target via tracking eye movement, so that answers that question.

[Cold-Dragon]

Maybe they're asylum escapees that see code where they shouldn't?

Or maybe they're the first in a breed of technomancer/mages, but the strain has made their logic 1 go to logic 0? ;)

Who knows?

[Samaels Ghost]

Logic 1, huh? Be carefulnot to let them get away with too much. They may be charismatic, but whenever they say something clever or lie their way out of a situation, make sure to assess whether they COULD have thought of that clever-whatever.

I do this all the time to my Uncouth\Charisma 1 player. His loose tongue and annoying demeanor gets the attention of cops and border officials whenever I remember. It gets him in trouble as much as his 8 Logic gets things done, which is the way it should be.

[Steak and Spirit...]

[James McMurray]

Average for this character would be 2 meters. Quite frequently though he'll be seeing 5 or 6 meter differences. It's really hard to miss a target by 15 feet when all you have to do is look at it. Remember, this isn't "scatter" so much as "miscalculation." When you're eyeballing distances you're not going to accidentally hit the other side of the street.

[Steak and Spirit...]

Enh. I -guess-. Really though, I have no sympathy for a character w/ Logic: 1, and no skill relevant to determining distance that underjudges the distance to a particular particle of air by 15 feet every once in a while.

Perhaps 'scatter' direction should be limited to 'before' or 'beyond' the intended target, traveling along the line to the intended point of detonation.

Decent compromise?

[Dragoonkin]

I still fail to see how you can "target" empty air. Target the floor, wall, ceiling, something...you can't "target" empty air for the simple fact that Mages have to be able to have a view of what they're targetting.

You can't "see" empty space, you see landmarks AROUND that space that allow you to put it in perspective. So you can't cast on it. Or shouldn't be able to.

This will be my ruling on this, should it ever come up.

[Cognitive Resona...]

[James McMurray]

[hyzmarca]

You wouldn't use logic to eyeball a distance. You'd use Intutition. Logic is for calculating ttrajectory when you are precisely measure distances and angles.

[JonathanC]

You'd use logic to know what distance you want to eyeball. :)

[FrankTrollman]

Interestingly, since a manablast can't be centered anywhere that you can't see, you can't center it on an object. The object blocks line of sight to its insides, so the center of the effect must be in front of any visible opaque object.

So while it might seem weird to be centering manablasts arbitrarily in space, that's literally the only way that magicians can target those things. I'm sure that anyone with a decently high Magic Attribute has long ago gotten used to that particular oddity of Shadowrun Magic.

Remember: to target an opponent you just have to see their aura; to center an area spell you actually have to see the center pint itself. And that means that the center point can't be inside an object.

-Frank

[Cold-Dragon]

Don't forget that darkness will make it hard to target too, though chances are if you can lob (heheh, lob) a mana ball, you can also use your astral perception to negate the darkness issue anyways.

I always saw the LOS of AOE as a 'your mind has to know what you want to effect' sort of thing. If you can't see 'where' and 'what' you're going to affect with a direct spell, then you can't do anything because your magical senses don't know what you're aiming for. Since manaball is a mana spell anyways, you could say that you're aiming through astral space for that spot and giving the mana flow there a good swift kick in the ....well, mana balls?

Power ball, similar concept, but you kick'em in a way that makes the magic shift in the physical plane, causing physical damage. You still need to know the where and what, so even though you're sensing through the astral plane (whether or not you're using perception or not), you can't make it work until you can give those factors.

That can also relate to why you can't hit those you can't see through these spells, since you're picking out the area in the first place. You're spraying the area you're gonna hit, and things that block the spray leave what's behind them untouched (or mostly, when you consider partial cover).

After that, indirect spells like a fire ball are easy - you aren't using the astral landmark system anymore - you're just making fire, and then lobbing the effect of making fire in a direction. Since you already have the 'where' (this ball of fire in my hand) in place, you just gotta hold that and then project it like the physical object it is as normal. Fire ball adds that extra twist of magic to make it explode, and wha-lah: nuke the guy behind the couch.


...so was that technically crappy enough? ^-^

[laughingowl]

To me I have no problem with saying a Mage know his magic well enough to end the effect centimeters from himself...

Now where some hard perception rolls would come in is determine where other teammates / explosive thingies / etc lie.

It is real easy to swing something and not hit yourself (with some practice); it is MUCH harder to swing something and not hit a person right next to you.

Targetting your spell so you are 5 centimeters from the effect is easy... You instively know whether you are in range.

THE QUESTION is... Bob who si about 2 meters in front of you and about 1 meter to the right... will HE be in the area of effect.

As I play most of my games verbal descriptions NOT matted... I will always warn if a casters description places them in the area of effected (unless something really funny going on like mana-sruge or funky mirrors/designs that totally throw depth perceptions); what I will NOT warn is if their intended target will hit team-mates / innocents / other important things, unless the player specifically asks AND 'calculates' (a free action if just will 'this' hit bob, a SIMPLE action (so yes a wasted pass) if Is it possible to get X,Y, and Z in the effects and miss A and B)

Peace

[De Badd Ass]

[Steak and Spirit...]

The spell targets the surface. Not inside. You can't target the inside of a baseball, because inside a baseball is not the surface of a baseball.

[James McMurray]

Actually, you target neither the surface of the baseball nor the inside. You target "the baseball."

[Cold-Dragon]

If you were to target a car with people inside, for example, you'd wreck up up the car pretty bad if you can make the check well enough, but short of broken glass and twisting metal hitting the occupants (or the car blowing up), those inside would be left unharmed).

Of course, depending when you zapped a car with a power or similar spell, it might be moot about the inside.