Is magic broken? - Dumpshock Forums

Is magic broken?

Well, is it?
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JonathanC

Sep 6 2006, 10:42 PM

Post #26

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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)

Casting a spell is a complex action. Shooting a burst is a simple action. IMO, a manabolt is stronger than a single burst, but not two.

Another point is that a 6 magic mage isn't going to have the body or edge attributes that the sammy has due to karma costs, so those bursts are going to be harder to resist than you imply.

A strong manaball will do more damage to more people than any full auto burst. It can cover a much wider area.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Sep 6 2006, 10:52 PM Post #27
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	If you're talking about area spells you have to look at grenades and missiles, not bursts. Grenades are fairly comparable to the various ball spells. Exactly how well they compare depends on how you interpret the rules for dodging them.

Metasigil View Member Profile	Sep 6 2006, 10:53 PM Post #28
Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,063	But, firing off a pair of frag or HE grenades will probably do as much if not more damage, especially if you can manage to pull off the chunky salsa effect. Remember, Spell Casting is a Complex Action, so its power level should be compared to the effects of either a) another Complex Action or b) two Simple Actions devoted to offense.

JonathanC

Sep 6 2006, 10:57 PM

Post #29

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

If you're talking about area spells you have to look at grenades and missiles, not bursts. Grenades are fairly comparable to the various ball spells. Exactly how well they compare depends on how you interpret the rules for dodging them.

Grenades don't explode until the end of the round. In a game where almost everyone has 3 initiative passes, that thing is never going to kill its intended target. A manaball goes off immediately, and is a much safer bet. Add in the utility of the other spells, and the extra manpower added by conjuring, and the scale tips heavily in favor of magic over tech in Shadowrun. Unlike drones, you never have to buy a spirit, or even repair it. And unlike cyberware, there isn't really a machine that detects being Awakened. Magic is just a better deal.

Toshiaki

Sep 6 2006, 10:57 PM

Post #30

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QUOTE (JonathanC)

Allow it? It's RAW. Guns have ammo, ammo costs money. Conjuring is free. And assuming you've got the dice and can resist the drain (not hard to figure out a decent stat build for this), there's no rule that I know of to prevent this.

While you are correct that there are no rules to prevent it yet, I recall that one of the authors/freelancers who worked on that section has commented on the boards that spirits on remote services are intended to count against your limit, and that this will be reflected when the FAQ is released (if the FAQ is released).

Armed with that knowledge, you are perfectly free to go ahead and implement it in your games, as many have already done. No reason to follow a rule that only came into being because it wasn't editted carefully enough.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Sep 6 2006, 10:58 PM Post #31
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	It's also a lot cheaper (in terms of BP) to have versatility through your grenades with stun damage, physical damage, chemicals, and vision blockers (IR smoke is really fun).

JonathanC

Sep 6 2006, 11:00 PM

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

It's also a lot cheaper (in terms of BP) to have versatility through your grenades with stun damage, physical damage, chemicals, and vision blockers (IR smoke is really fun).

You can't match the versatility of magic, though. Flight, invisibility, protection from magic (magic is the only protection from magic, while you can protect yourself from bullets and explosives more effectively with magic than tech and armor), illusions, instant healing that far outstrips a medkit, and of course the powers that spirits can provide.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Sep 6 2006, 11:03 PM Post #33
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	Right, I said that earlier. :) I'm specifically talking about the versatility of grenades vs. magical booms. Magic has more versatility with the oft-maligned elemental effects, but it's much more expensive in terms of build points to cover multiple bases of area attacks.

JonathanC View Member Profile	Sep 6 2006, 11:31 PM Post #34
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083	I don't know...you only have to buy an area effect spell once. You'll be buying grenades for the rest of your career. Just sayin', I think magic has outstripped tech in SR4, and that was even before Street Magic came out. I hope Arsenal and the Cyberware book kind of set things back into balance, but I'm not holding my breath.

Dr. Dodge

Sep 7 2006, 12:09 AM

Post #35

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QUOTE (Toshiaki)

QUOTE (JonathanC)

Allow it? It's RAW. Guns have ammo, ammo costs money. Conjuring is free. And assuming you've got the dice and can resist the drain (not hard to figure out a decent stat build for this), there's no rule that I know of to prevent this.

While you are correct that there are no rules to prevent it yet, I recall that one of the authors/freelancers who worked on that section has commented on the boards that spirits on remote services are intended to count against your limit, and that this will be reflected when the FAQ is released (if the FAQ is released).

Here's the link for that thread about unlimited remote services
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...remote+services

QUOTE (JonathanC)

I don't know...you only have to buy an area effect spell once. You'll be buying grenades for the rest of your career. Just sayin', I think magic has outstripped tech in SR4, and that was even before Street Magic came out. I hope Arsenal and the Cyberware book kind of set things back into balance, but I'm not holding my breath.

But you pay for that AE spell every time you cast it with drain. It seems like a lot of magicians seem only to cast on perfect sunny days in the middle of a vacant lot 5 feet from the intended target, gotta remember those visibility modifiers. Also as we all know, manaballs only affect those who were in LOS. Also also, last time i checked there was a lot of ambiguity about indirect spells in SR4, has it been spelled out that they CAN affect targets outside of LOS?

James McMurray

Sep 7 2006, 12:33 AM

Post #36

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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 6 2006, 06:31 PM)

I don't know...you only have to buy an area effect spell once. You'll be buying grenades for the rest of your career. Just sayin', I think magic has outstripped tech in SR4, and that was even before Street Magic came out. I hope Arsenal and the Cyberware book kind of set things back into balance, but I'm not holding my breath.

One manaball costs 15 3BP, or the equivilent of 15,000 :nuyen:. For that much money you can get fifty of each non-gas, non-flashpak grenade and still have 6,250 :nuyen: left to buy flash paks and gas grenades with. For most runners that is more than a lifetime supply. And you haven't even bought a physical spell (effectively another 15,000 :nuyen:), or an elemental spell (effectively another 15,000 :nuyen:).

JonathanC View Member Profile	Sep 7 2006, 12:40 AM Post #37
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083	15BP? How so? Spells don't cost 15BP per spell. Unless you're counting the stats or skill, which really shouldn't count, unless you want to compare the cost of buying high agility/combat skills, which will be comparable.

ShadowDragon

Sep 7 2006, 12:40 AM

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QUOTE (JonathanC)

QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 6 2006, 10:52 PM)

If you're talking about area spells you have to look at grenades and missiles, not bursts. Grenades are fairly comparable to the various ball spells. Exactly how well they compare depends on how you interpret the rules for dodging them.

Grenades don't explode until the end of the round. In a game where almost everyone has 3 initiative passes, that thing is never going to kill its intended target. A manaball goes off immediately, and is a much safer bet. Add in the utility of the other spells, and the extra manpower added by conjuring, and the scale tips heavily in favor of magic over tech in Shadowrun. Unlike drones, you never have to buy a spirit, or even repair it. And unlike cyberware, there isn't really a machine that detects being Awakened. Magic is just a better deal.

Grenades explode immediately when shot from a grenade launcher. And for 2000Y you can get a launcher at chargen that fires 2 per IP. Thrown grenades explode on the next IP, not the next round.

Manaball requires LOS to all targets. Grenades can be thrown/shot around cover.

ShadowDragon

Sep 7 2006, 12:43 AM

Post #39

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QUOTE (JonathanC)

15BP? How so? Spells don't cost 15BP per spell. Unless you're counting the stats or skill, which really shouldn't count, unless you want to compare the cost of buying high agility/combat skills, which will be comparable.

He meant 3BP, which is worth 15000Y

James McMurray View Member Profile	Sep 7 2006, 12:47 AM Post #40
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	Doh! What ShadowDragon said.

cx2 View Member Profile	Sep 7 2006, 12:51 AM Post #41
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802	Ares alpha anyone? I'll have to check and see if it can be fitted with an airburst link ;) No denying that magic isn't perfect, but then again not many things are in life. And I'm certain there's plenty of tools available to GMs to help tone down the effects of magic. Ultrasound goggles, pressure sensors, security mages or adepts, etc. Plus if you throw up a smoke grenade enemy magic will have a hard time, whilst you can still shoot or throw/launch grenades through. Might get penalties, but penalties are better than not being able to do it at all.

JonathanC View Member Profile	Sep 7 2006, 12:55 AM Post #42
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083	I still think the magic is a better investment. Awakened characters have superior upgrade options, while anyone using cyberware has severe limits on how much they can upgrade. Not to mention, adding more cyberware makes it more difficult for that character to heal due to essence loss (to say nothing of the cyberzombie effect). And mages are the only character type who can easily start the game with four initiative passes. Plus, grenades lose strength immediately as soon as you leave the point of impact. A manaball/powerball/ball lightning spell remains as potent as ever, regardless of distance.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Sep 7 2006, 12:59 AM Post #43
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	The airburst link is a smartgun accessory that doesn't take a mount. So yep, give your alpha an upgrade. :) Visibility modifiers apply to spellcasting, so if there's a smoke grenade in the area spellcasting will be at -4 dice. Unless you've got thermal smoke and the mage is using thermographic vision he won't be stopped from casting.

James McMurray

Sep 7 2006, 01:03 AM

Post #44

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Walking around with sustained spells isn't as easy as it sounds. Wards, random astral entities, and patrolling spirits will take interest.

QUOTE

A manaball/powerball/ball lightning spell remains as potent as ever, regardless of distance.

Which is a huge area generally. This means that unless your mage is leading the charge he's probably nuking his friends. Area attacks of any sort can be hard to use with friendlies around. The huge radius and ease of targetting makes area spells harder to avoid friendly fire with.

Gort View Member Profile	Sep 7 2006, 05:14 AM Post #45
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415	Also keep in mind that walking around with sustained spells leaves your astral signature behind for Force hours. Easy to follow such a person and do horrible things to them.

Slithery D

Sep 7 2006, 05:16 AM

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QUOTE (Gort)

Also keep in mind that walking around with sustained spells leaves your astral signature behind for Force hours. Easy to follow such a person and do horrible things to them.

I don't agree with this. I'd always considered signatures to remain where the spell is actually cast.

Cognitive Resona...

Sep 7 2006, 05:25 AM

Post #47

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QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)

Actually, they do take over someone's mind and then blow it out of the back of their skulls :D Bullets can take over pretty fast on full auto. I wouldn't say magic is broken just powerful, as it should be. It should also be rare but that's up to each GM.

My main problem with magic is as follows:

Your sammy and your mage both try to bring a weapon onto a bus.

Likelyhood someone on the bus knows what a normal pistol is (even has a chance to detect hidden)
100%

Since useful mages make up so little of the population, likelyhood someone on the bus knows he's packing mana, (and most people have no chance to detect until he starts casting).
Much smaller.

Basically I've ruled that the average person absoutly hates mages because they see them all as invisible walking bombs.

mallet

Sep 7 2006, 05:51 AM

Post #48

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

Walking around with sustained spells isn't as easy as it sounds. Wards, random astral entities, and patrolling spirits will take interest.

Yah, this is one of the biggest drawbacks of a mages with a sustaining habbit.

Most places of value (ie, the target of any shadowrun) will have wards up around the goodies so a mage will have to drop the sustaining spell to pass through undetected (and then do a whole recast on the other side of it) or "fight" his way through the ward which will set off all type of astral watchers and alarms.

Plus, as James said, sustained spells are like a fraging big spotlight on the astral plane pointing everyone and everything towards the mage. In any type of stealth mission a mage with sustained spells is a major drawback and will probably get the team geeked.

mallet

Sep 7 2006, 05:57 AM

Post #49

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QUOTE (Slithery D)

QUOTE (Gort @ Sep 7 2006, 12:14 AM)

Also keep in mind that walking around with sustained spells leaves your astral signature behind for Force hours. Easy to follow such a person and do horrible things to them.

I don't agree with this. I'd always considered signatures to remain where the spell is actually cast.

Obviously you don't have to agree with this, and can rule how you like in your game, but as far as I understand the rules the Astral Signature is like a trail (or a scent if that is a better analogy) that lingers around all magical characters. The more stuff you have (magic items, sustained spells, etc...) means the scent is stronger and lingers around long after you leave the area, no matter if is where you cast the spell (although that might be the strongest spot) or where ever you roam afterwords.

Slithery D

Sep 7 2006, 06:26 AM

Post #50

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QUOTE (mallet)

QUOTE (Slithery D @ Sep 7 2006, 12:16 AM)

QUOTE (Gort @ Sep 7 2006, 12:14 AM)

Also keep in mind that walking around with sustained spells leaves your astral signature behind for Force hours. Easy to follow such a person and do horrible things to them.

I don't agree with this. I'd always considered signatures to remain where the spell is actually cast.

Obviously you don't have to agree with this, and can rule how you like in your game, but as far as I understand the rules the Astral Signature is like a trail (or a scent if that is a better analogy) that lingers around all magical characters.

Less obviously, this was an implied invitation for everyone else to pile and tell you you're wrong, but, of course, you can rule however you like.

QUOTE

The more stuff you have (magic items, sustained spells, etc...) means the scent is stronger and lingers around long after you leave the area, no matter if is where you cast the spell (although that might be the strongest spot) or where ever you roam afterwords.

This, at least, is completely without any basis in the rules even by implication or extrapolation. Even if you allow astral signatures to be mobile and only start to run after a spell sustaining ends, force, rather than quantity, determines how long signatures last.

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