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> Is magic broken?
Well, is it?
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JonathanC
post Sep 7 2006, 07:15 AM
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The wording is a bit ambiguous as to whether walking around with sustained spells leaves a trail behind. I mean, technically, if you're sustaining a spell in an area, then you are creating a magical effect in that area.

On the other hand, you aren't casting it in that area. I think this is something that could use clarification.
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NightHaunter
post Sep 7 2006, 03:44 PM
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My justification for yes.

Combat spells can waste just about everything.

With little comparative risk or trace ability.
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Slithery D
post Sep 7 2006, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
The wording is a bit ambiguous as to whether walking around with sustained spells leaves a trail behind. I mean, technically, if you're sustaining a spell in an area, then you are creating a magical effect in that area.

On the other hand, you aren't casting it in that area. I think this is something that could use clarification.

The only mobile area of effect spells I can think of offhand are Detection. Even if you cast it on yourself and don't move, surely an extended range doesn't leave a huge cloud of signature all over the place! (Ewww.) Signatures attach to what you cast a spell "on." While sometimes that will be a (stationary) area, more often it's a specific person/target.
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James McMurray
post Sep 7 2006, 04:25 PM
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Nighthaunter: Guns can also waste just about everything with little comparative risk or tracability. And it's a heck of a lot easier for an investigative team to find and track down an astral signature then a bullet.
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Slithery D
post Sep 7 2006, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 7 2006, 11:25 AM)
And it's a heck of a lot easier for an investigative team to find and track down an astral signature then a bullet.

I just don't get this. What's easy about it? Signatures do not provide astral links for tracking like sustained spells, foci, ward, and spirits do. If you kill someone with a manaball, all the signature does is leave your fingerprint. The investigators still have to know it's your fingerprint.

If you assume, as I do, that registered mages have to be assensed and have a description of their signature recorded, and further assume, as I do, that this description is helpful enough to allow one to look someone up in the database and at least narrow it down to a few subjects with similar signatures, you still don't have a problem with this for runners because they're SINless and not in the database! Yes, if a mage later assenses some of your magical activity and he knows about your prior criminal activity and associated signature, you've been ID'd as the perp. And this can certainly happen if you go around casting magic casually around magical observers who regularly read police and corporate security astral signature blotters. So don't do that.

Admittedly, this is all still "easier" than finding a gun and comparing it to a bullet, but it's really not that easy. The essential problem remains the same - if you're busted with the evidence, it can be used to convict you. But if you're busted already, specific evidence of conviction may not be your principle concern. So just don't get busted and don't flash your signature around in strange company where it might be recognized and draw unwanted attention or payback squads.
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 7 2006, 04:37 PM
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I don't think magic is broken because statistics are statistics, but dice are chaos. One day, your sorceror is going to cast Invisibility and score three hits; the first guard to see him will roll a lucky four, and blow his head clean off.
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James McMurray
post Sep 7 2006, 04:47 PM
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I didn't say it was easy, just that it was easier. Someone who has seen your signature will recognize it when they see it again. That means if any who have your cig circulated amongst them happen to see it elsewhere (say on a passing person or spirit) they can follow that line back to you. If they see another one of your bullets they won't even realize it until the ballistics team has told them it's the same, and there's no astral chain between bullets and shooters like there is between spells and casters.
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Xenefungus
post Sep 9 2006, 08:50 AM
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Slightly off-topic: If and how can a mage transfer or describe an astral signature he has spotted to one of his mage-chummers? The only thing i could think of would be a consensual mindprobe which would need a lot of trust for sure. Other ways you can think of?
Of course I'm specially asking in reference to the cops who will have found a method to do it, i fear. ^^
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Thanee
post Sep 9 2006, 08:59 AM
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It might work with a spirit as 'messenger'. You can give spirits a mental image of a signature, and I suppose this works both ways. You just let the other mage take control of the spirit then.

Bye
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Lantzer
post Sep 9 2006, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 6 2006, 10:52 PM)
If you're talking about area spells you have to look at grenades and missiles, not bursts. Grenades are fairly comparable to the various ball spells. Exactly how well they compare depends on how you interpret the rules for dodging them.

Grenades don't explode until the end of the round. In a game where almost everyone has 3 initiative passes, that thing is never going to kill its intended target. A manaball goes off immediately, and is a much safer bet. Add in the utility of the other spells, and the extra manpower added by conjuring, and the scale tips heavily in favor of magic over tech in Shadowrun. Unlike drones, you never have to buy a spirit, or even repair it. And unlike cyberware, there isn't really a machine that detects being Awakened. Magic is just a better deal.

As mentioned somewhere else, thrown Grenades come with a wireless link at no extra cost. Got a datajack and a comlink?

Arm. Toss. (Free action to remote trigger) Boom.



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Lantzer
post Sep 9 2006, 02:13 PM
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Oh and to add my own vote... Yes magic can be overpowered, in the right circumstances.

This, however, should be something that Shadowrun GMs are used to dealing with. Magic has always been friggin' powerful. The key is to apply the disadvantages it does have.

When was the last time you had a mage in your games that was worried about burning out? People only seem to see the games where the mage is on his 4th initiation, right out of character generation.

My question is: If 'Turn to goo' was too overpowered a spell idea for 3rd edition, why'd they bring it back in 4th?
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Steak and Spirit...
post Sep 9 2006, 02:33 PM
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I understand that perhaps this response may be coming in late. However, I think the question is fairly broad, and open to interpretation - Perhaps we could focus it down a bit.

If by "Is Magic Broken" do you mean that it is a disfunctional system? No, of course not - It demonstrates itself to be fluid, adaptable, and blends seemlessly into the majority of mechanics put forth in the fourth edition of Shadowrun.

But as I do not believe that the afforementioned interpretation is what the original poster intended, I believe it could be rewritten as "Is the Magic system a point of Shadowrun that is exploitable, and abuseable? And if so, can the exploitation and abuse create situations or characters that are detrimental to the other archetypes."

If that were the question posed, I would say 'Yes' on the first count, absolutely. I think we've all seen magic abuse since the beginning of Shadowrun. Afterall, 'Geek the Mage First' isn't a term that came into being on it's own. Infact, the rules themselves openly admit this. And I believe the second point will be answered by the conclusion of this post.

QUOTE

Magician
Cost: 15 BP

Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that are intended to be played as magicians.


Afterall - There is no single Build Point expenditure that will have a more dramtic amount of returns available to character. Simply put, a player will always have the option to turn his Mage into a Samurai, if they choose to do so, from the standpoint of rules alone. Nothing is holding them back, save penalties on magic abilities that his Mundane counterparts didn't have to begin with. If that's a drawback, it's one that any powergamer would take in a heartbeat. This is relevent because if we're talking about something that can be abused, or exploited, then we're concerned about a powergamer playertype using the letter of the law, rather than it's spirit.

So, of course Magic is Abuseable, and Exploitable - From the perspective of the game designers, the core text from Shadowrun 4th Edition implies that this was intentional. There isn't a subsection included that says: "This is what balances out Magic with Mundanes, refer to these rules." It clearly, and open endedly says: "Gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused."

Hardly any of the arguements for why Mundanes match up with Awakened characters hold water because at the most fundamental level, an awakened character will nearly always have the options of their mundane counterparts.

Mundane = Ruthenium. Mage = Ruthenium + Invisibility. Mundane = Assault Rifle on full auto (Guns don't have drain codes?). Mage = Assault Rifle on Full Auto (Guns don't require essence, either) + Fireball/Manabolt/Manaball/Control Actions. Mundane = Cybernetic Initiative Passes. Mage = Magical Initiative Passes. Mundane = Cyberspurs. Mage = Cyberspurs + Melee Buffs + Magical Ability that still maintains a ratio of Infinity to Nothing vs. the effective Magic Attribute Value of Mundanes.

Pound for Pound, an awakened character by the numbers will always outdistance its mundane counterpart. The game system accepts this. And the grim reality is, short of GM intervention, there are no rules in place that will prevent the long term domination of Awakened Character's over Mundanes.

If this becomes a problem in your game, then it is a matter that only your GM can control - Background counts. Threats being introduced that specifically work to the disadvantage of Awakened Characters. Spells going awry, or follow-up repurcussions from Astral Signatures.

But, unfortunately, outside of the Intelligent direction of your Gamemaster, with a backbone to say "No" to his awakened characters from time to time, you will not find Mundane's standing toe to toe with Awakened. You'll always be outclassed, someway, somehow - Perhaps Augmentation will settle the score, so those of us who prefer mundanes will have to hold our breath, and hope for the best.

(Edit: Changed 'layed as magicians' to 'played as magicians' - We aren't overly concerned with Awakened pr0n.)
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Slithery D
post Sep 9 2006, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Xenefungus)
Slightly off-topic: If and how can a mage transfer or describe an astral signature he has spotted to one of his mage-chummers? The only thing i could think of would be a consensual mindprobe which would need a lot of trust for sure. Other ways you can think of?
Of course I'm specially asking in reference to the cops who will have found a method to do it, i fear. ^^

This is purely a GM call, but there's not reason he can't rule that astral signatures can be described with considerable details in ways that make sense to other awakened characters. Maybe it has "colors" in some identifiable pattern, so that one guy's signature looks like pink crosshatched with blue and spotted with orange. (Or for less detail, just sort of pale bluish-red.)

Then from that description you can decide whether a later signature is a possible match or not before you call in the original guy to confirm or make further investigation through other means. Treat it like an eye witness description, varying detail according to how you want it in your game. Can you just give the equivalent of "tall, medium build, light brown hair"? Or will you also spot better identifying details, like scars, eye color, nose shape, teeth, etc?
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Cognitive Resona...
post Sep 9 2006, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Slithery D)
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Sep 9 2006, 03:50 AM)
Slightly off-topic: If and how can a mage transfer or describe an astral signature he has spotted to one of his mage-chummers? The only thing i could think of would be a consensual mindprobe which would need a lot of trust for sure. Other ways you can think of?
Of course I'm specially asking in reference to the cops who will have found a method to do it, i fear. ^^

This is purely a GM call, but there's not reason he can't rule that astral signatures can be described with considerable details in ways that make sense to other awakened characters. Maybe it has "colors" in some identifiable pattern, so that one guy's signature looks like pink crosshatched with blue and spotted with orange. (Or for less detail, just sort of pale bluish-red.)

Then from that description you can decide whether a later signature is a possible match or not before you call in the original guy to confirm or make further investigation through other means. Treat it like an eye witness description, varying detail according to how you want it in your game. Can you just give the equivalent of "tall, medium build, light brown hair"? Or will you also spot better identifying details, like scars, eye color, nose shape, teeth, etc?

Should it be harder to describe an aura to someone of a different tradition? (As in you'd describe it within the confines of your tradition)
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knasser
post Sep 10 2006, 12:42 AM
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I didn't vote. Shadowrun has a very elegant and balanced magic system on the whole. However, it is broken in one very important way:

Magical development is open ended. Non-magical development is capped, and capped quickly. When your samurai has got his Dermal implants to rating three, the mage is just getting going with a quickened Armour spell. Another year of game time and your samurai still has dermal III, but now the mage has Armour 8 quickened. Apply it to anything you like. Magicians have long term power-development and playability. Samurai not only peak early. Sometimes they've peaked in character development.

Samurai need more toys and they need them now. Roll on Arsenal and Augmentation!
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Slithery D
post Sep 10 2006, 12:48 AM
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I would take this whining more seriously if your "capped" samurai already had natural 6s in Reaction, Willpower, Body, Agility, and Reaction. And decent ratings in Strength and Intuition.
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Apathy
post Sep 10 2006, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (Slithery D)
I would take this whining more seriously if your "capped" samurai already had natural 6s in Reaction, Willpower, Body, Agility, and Reaction. And decent ratings in Strength and Intuition.

I believe the 'Latent Magician' quality was also a response to gamer complaints that mundanes 'capped out' quicker than magical types. At only 5 points, it's super-cheap, and allows the street sam/rigger/hacker an escape hatch when, after 5 years of campaigning and 500 karma, he's run out of mundane things to invest in.
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Steak and Spirit...
post Sep 10 2006, 04:34 AM
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I don't think that's the solution we're looking for.

Players: Mundane's aren't balanced with Awakened Characters.
Mr. Solution: Well. Make an awakened Character, then!
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James McMurray
post Sep 10 2006, 06:10 AM
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Trust me, in 5 years of campaigning you'll see enough SOTA books to upgrade the sammie, and then SR5 will come out and you'll reset the campaign. No worries. :)
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Ophis
post Sep 10 2006, 08:20 AM
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Having done the work at converting old characters over to SR4 the street sam types are hitting their caps on everything ie combat skills, perception, their choice of Stealth skills and Influence skills, plus a secondary or two (in the main case medicine) and having most attributes maxed at around 700-800 karma, more for technophile rigger types. This is a reasonable amount of room to my mind (okay I'm lucky my players go for balanced over specialised) and I use a slightly doctored reduce karma cost set up as i wasn't happy with the one in the book.
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mintcar
post Sep 10 2006, 01:32 PM
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Magic does give the player a lot of creative possibilities, and certain players may be able to break the game using combinations made possible in the rules—if the GM lets them. However, it seems that players who are not dead set on breaking the game may feel mages are underpowered compaired to cybered characters. More often than not, mages in my group don't really get their stuff to work before the street samurai in the group has wiped out the enemy, or they may just not think of using some of their abilities because there's so many of them.

So no, I don't think magic is broken. Certain spells are though, but I have corrected them.

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fool
post Sep 10 2006, 07:51 PM
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aside from the mind control stuff, things seem pretty balanced.
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James McMurray
post Sep 10 2006, 07:57 PM
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I agree with that, although I haven't seen much of Street Magic, so can't really comment on anything in it.
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Shrike30
post Sep 13 2006, 07:30 PM
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Street magic managed to add so many varied things that I'm not sure we'll know about "balance" until we've had a lot more playtime with it.
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Egon
post Sep 16 2006, 01:38 AM
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In case you don't get it from the poll results take a look at the posts and topics on the forum right now. The forum is currently 3 magic fanboys to every 1 cyber fanboy.

I am not saying it bad or good. That all depends on what camp you are in, but don't be surprised when promagic thoughts get gushed over and procyber thoughts get the cold shoulder, or when the forum defends magic.

Things may swing around all over again when augmentation comes out. Remember sams have all of 10 pages of cannon right now, maybe 20 if you want to count the whole gear section. ^shrug^

In the end it is up to the GMs to find balance in their games. Shadowrun is a large system. There are things broken on both ends, magic to cyberware. Fan Pro is doing a great job, but you can't take the rules as words from god. Its a game just make sure everyone is having fun thats the point
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