 Is magic broken? |
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 Sep 16 2006, 11:38 AM
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#76
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650  |
natural 6s? no but I have got augmented 9s in most of those after about 100 karma and some insanely good cash runs and the mage STILL PWNs me |
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Sep 16 2006, 03:45 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
See! You wasted Essence by getting more than three points of augmentation when you could have just waited for another 100 karma points and done it that way. Then you'd have more room for toys. For shame!
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Sep 16 2006, 04:35 PM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
is that sarcasm?
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Sep 16 2006, 04:42 PM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:01 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
If we didn't like magic, then we would be playing Cyberpunk. |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:37 PM
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#81
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The fact that ranged weapons generally require a simple action to fire rather than a complex is an advantage that cannot be overstated. Even against Force 9 Spirits, the character who I see consistently dishing out the kills is the street samurai with a sniper rifle firing armor piercing rounds. Base 8P, -7 AP, and she always calls a shot for an additional +4 DV, it easily slices through the 18 points of hardened armor. and causes some real damage (6-9 boxes of it in fact). Since it's just a simple action, the act that a single shot isn't enough to kill the spirit isn't even meaningful - she just fires a second time and this time the spirit has big penalties to its defense roll.
In the killing things market, even the killing of things with "immunity to normal weapons", an experienced street samurai in our group is substantially outperforming the magicians, and that's in neutral background count. Where the mages excell is doing all that other stuff they do. Just the fact that they have a healing effect that is unique to them that is cumulative with the first aid kit anyone can use means that they have something to feel smug about in all circumstances. The fact that spells like Invisibility work fundamentally differently from other forms of stealth is also often useful. But finally, the Spirit powers of Movement, Guard, and Concealment are simply awesome and not replaceable by other things. And that's the bottom line: a street samurai can kill things very well, but she's replaceable with a pack of mundanes with hatchets if it comes to that. There's not really anything you need a street samurai for. A Hacker or a Magician is someone you need. You literally cannot complete some missions without those characters. So that puts character types like the Street Samurai under the hairy eyeball. They aren't necessary, so if they aren't played well they come off as incredibly lame. -Frank |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:43 PM
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#82
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
This only surpises me because magic has played such a minor role in the games I've been a part of (we might run into something magical on 1% of the runs) |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:10 PM
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#83
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I somehow doubt that pack of mundanes with hatchets is going to fare well against the Force 9 Spirit you mentioned. :)
I'd like to know too. Willpower is at least as important as body, if not moreso. You can augment body resistance tests with things like armor and toxin filters. There aren't anywhere near as many ways to augment Willpower, so having a high base stat is vital. |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:39 PM
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#84
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Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 16-September 06 Member No.: 9,400 |
Just curious...where does it say that you can determine any of the Spirits Characteristics other than those determined by force? I assumed that these would be determined by your GM. The power you're talking about is also OPTIONAL. Just Curious |
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Sep 16 2006, 06:41 PM
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#85
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Additional powers are chosen by the character.
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Sep 16 2006, 06:47 PM
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#86
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113 |
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Sep 16 2006, 07:20 PM
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#87
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That depends upon how many hatchetmen you have. A Force 9 spirit isn't hiding, it's a threshold of -3 to notice it, so even the dazed and confused are going o pinpoint it as soon as it materializes. And that's good, because it's going to spend its first IP materializing. And then your hatchetmen are going to charge en masse. And they are going to accomplis very little. See, they've got Willpowers of 3 and Charismas of 3 and hatchets. They also outnumber the spirit by a lot. Each Hatchetman gets 3 (Willpower) + 1 (Reach) + 4 (outnumbering) + 2 (charging) = 10 dice on their attack and a base DV of 3 (Charisma). The spirit has, unfortunately, 20 dice on its defense rolls (11 Reaction + Unarmed Combat 9). That's bad, but it also drops by 1 every time it blocks an attack (and by more every time it fails to block an attack). So if you attack it 10 times, you're going to be getting an attack or two through. And that's not much, because it also soaks 3-4 boxes on its Body check. So at 10 foolios, we're looking ar inflicting 0-1 boxes of damage or so (although statistically it's probably a little better than that because when the spirit rolls really well nothing happens and when it rolls absolute dick it takes a notable pile of damage). But every foolio past 10 is golden. They're averaging inflicting a little more than 0 boxes of damage every attack. And if they spend Edge for 3 more dice and the rule of 6, they're looking at like 2 extra damage boxes each. So if I had 16 professional hatchet mooks, I'd confidently expect them to drop a Force 9 spirit without even suffering casualties. Attacks of Will don't work very well, but they work t all, and when large numbers of people are doing them even the mightiest of demons crumble. -Frank |
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Sep 16 2006, 07:51 PM
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#88
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Assuming they could all get near it. Go to a biker bar, wait til there are exactly 16 of them, call their gang a bunch of fags* and see how many can attack you at once. If you can talk them into using a battlemat, it'll only be 8 at a time unless someone learns to fly.
Of course, if they fail to kill it on the first round the odds are pretty good it's going to kill some of them. Exactly how it does it and how many drop will depend on what kind of spirit it is and what optional powers its summoner gave it. If they're extremely unlucky it has an area spell or energy aura and they all die at once. * If this doesn't work, it's possible you stumbled into a gay biker bar. Try calling them right wing conservatives and see if that gets the desired response. ;) |
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Sep 16 2006, 08:02 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Energy Aura makes them considerably less likely to want to charge it en masse. (Edit: James mentioned that, but only a Body 1-2 person rolling no successes is going to go down "at once" to a Force 9 EA.)They're going to have to kill it on the first attack, or, depending on armor and high Body, they're going to die on the second try. If they're smart they'll scatter and run, knowing the spirit can't catch all of them.
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Sep 16 2006, 08:20 PM
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#90
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It doesn't have to catch them. Remember, they're there to kill the spirit, not the other way around. In any case, you're definitely better off with the sniper rifle. :)
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Sep 16 2006, 08:26 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I suppose. In any case, screw all of these extra hatchetmen marshmallows - I want to see someone's Charisma 9 elf send in a mob of 9 watchers to provide friend in melee dice that are immune to the Energy Aura.
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Sep 16 2006, 08:37 PM
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#92
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Oh no doubt. My point was not that the razorgirl was pointless. In fact,I think the example of one Razorgirl with a smart-linked high powered rifle being somewhat superior to 16 axe mooks definitely demonstrates that she has utility. My point was only that you could fill a van with members ofthe Axe Gang and do the same basic job of the razorgirl, while no number of Axe Gangers are going to speed your van up to 600 KPH (to replace a Conjurer with Movement) or loop a camera feed (to replace a Hacker). Combat effectiveness is something that everyone contributes, so the ability to contribute "a lot" to combat is a little less special than anything else you'd recruit a team member for. Note that Ocean's Eleven didn't even have a combat specialist and managed to do their Shadowruns just fine. The Italian Job is pretty much the same way, their killer betrayed them and they managed to get through by just outsourcing to East European mobsters. Neither group would have gotten anywhere without a demolitions expert and a hacker however. So if the rest of the team is willing to put in for the occassional character with a combat minor and the street sam isn't pretty competent as a character and as a player, it's entirely possible for the Street Samurai to feel like a fifth wheel. It doesn't happen every game Certainly, sometimes the Street Sam happens to be the team's driver, medic, or demolitions expert and ends up being completely iinvaluable in the team's plans and the most effective in combat (thus appearing to dominate play). But in an absolute sense, the razorgirl's skill with a high powered rifle, while impressive, is functionally replaceable with large enough numbers of mooks. No other signature team skill has that distinction. -Frank |
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Sep 16 2006, 09:28 PM
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#93
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Our current group doesn't have a street samurai. Either that, or everyone exceptt he mage is a street samurai, depending on how you look at it. Everyone in the group is capable of participating in battle and contributing, while nobody has 18+ dice. Well, I take that back. One guy has a lot of dice, but he duel wields, so it's more like he has a few dice but more times to use them.
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Sep 16 2006, 09:32 PM
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#94
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
True, but not really apropos to the standard situation. Most teams are one character per player, not one character per player except for the guy that runs 16 mooks. You can replace / invalidate the need for the team's mage just by not taking jobs where you're facing magical opposition. You can replace the hacker with a bunch of agents. Doesn't mean that those people are now obsolete. And in the standard game they're not even really replacable because the theory doesn't fit the table well. |
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Sep 16 2006, 09:34 PM
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#95
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, to be fair, limiting the number of attackers according to battlemat spaces is not in the rules. |
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Sep 16 2006, 09:44 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Hell, the rules even allow you to get bonus dice when you're attacking enemy A because your friends are attacking A's ally B a couple of meters away.
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Sep 16 2006, 10:01 PM
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#97
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
True, but neither is allowing 16 people to attack the same opponent. IIRC there are no limits, which means either the GM must decide (which seems to be the basis for SR4) or infinite numbers of opponents can attack the same target all at once. I'll go with GM decision on this one, and most (all?) GMs I know would set the limit somewhere lower than 16.
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Sep 16 2006, 10:10 PM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Of course, the real issue is that if it's a fire elemental they're going to drop their axes, open their flies, and piss on the thing. We need distance rules! And talk about an exotic weapon proficiency...
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Sep 16 2006, 11:43 PM
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#99
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I wouldn't exactly call having your target loot cremated the culmination of a successful run (although that was poor planning combined with a fluke rather than a lack of muscle).
The hatchet mooks need a name. I shall call them The Light Brigade. Anyone remember The Light Brigade? Yeah, a full frontal change is rarely the best idea. It may work against spirits. It doesn't work against machine guns. All you need is 4 fully automatic weapons using suppressive fires rules at 50 meters and your 16 mooks will all die before they close to melee range. The razor girl, on the other than, just drops prone, crawls behind cover, and uses her smartlink camera to target the shooters from realitive safety.Even if they advance while firing they won't be able to compromise her cover before she kills them all. |
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Sep 17 2006, 07:22 PM
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#100
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Here's a question about magic balance. How do you treat area spells? I had a player who wanted to target an empty space with Ball Lightning, so as to target only the enemy, and leave himself (who was fairly nearby) unscathed. He was arguing that his goggles, which have a variety of vision enhancements and are linked to his commlink, could easily pinpoint the distance. I said I doubted it, and made him use the rules for constraining area effect spells (losing dice to better control the size of the area).
Am I being a hardass, or what? |
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