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> Magebane, Spell creation
Samaels Ghost
post Sep 6 2006, 04:22 PM
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Would it be completely out of the question to make a spell that targets awakened characters or those of a certian tradition/religion? I see rival magic circles ritually spellcasting Slaughter Wiccan or Slaughter Awakened at each other. Obviously edging on forbidden magic, and I'd only allow such a thing for the twisted NPCs in my game.

BTW, I know the description of the One Less [metatype/species] and similar spells specify that it is a biological distinction. Just wondering if this type of thing has been considered and why it shouldn't be used. Besides being a little sick :P
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 6 2006, 04:27 PM
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I'm not really sure where the line should be drawn, i.e. if it should be Slaughter Awakened or Slaughter [Tradition], but flavorwise it seems really cool, and I see no reason why it would be particularly broken. I like it.
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2bit
post Sep 6 2006, 05:37 PM
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tradition is pretty gray... is it ok to use spells to learn information about people in such indirect ways? If I can cast Detect Shaman, can I cast Detect Homosexual? Detect Cop? Awakened at least is something written into your genes.
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Moon-Hawk
post Sep 6 2006, 05:53 PM
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Good point. I agree with 2bit. Go with Slaughter Awakened.
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hyzmarca
post Sep 6 2006, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (2bit)
can I cast Detect Homosexual?

You could try, but I'd compare its results to those of commercially available gaydar before relying on it.

Sexual orientation may be genetic, you know. Tradition may be, as well. There are plenty of stories of people who were raised as shaman eventually comming out as hermetics and vica versa. It isn't just a matter of nurture; there is some nature to it, as well.
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lorechaser
post Sep 6 2006, 06:43 PM
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I'd allow it to detect anything that a person considers a fundamental part of their being.

I assume the detect is based on Auras. Auras seem to be at least somewhat based on self-image.

So Detect Fathers would find the dad of a newborn, but not the guy that had a kid 12 years ago, and doesn't even know where it is....
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 6 2006, 07:05 PM
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See, at first I thought that anything that can be defined during an Assensing should be allowed, as a spell could be designed to seek out those astral characteristics. But The spells in SM and the core book seek out species and metatypes. That same "indirect detection" comment could be directed towards Slaughter Dragons to determine if anyone in the room is a Dragon in disguise. Actually, that's a great idea for a paranoid character :D

If metatype and species can be "detected" through using exsisting spells, tradition, awakened status, or even emotional temperment should be allowed.

After all, metatype isn't really genetic, is it? It is, by virtue of the name given to it (Unexplained Genetic Expression), undetectable through examination of the genes. It is most likely a mana based characteristic.

The example chart for Detect Life in the SR4 book lists pretty detailed information on 4 hits. Metatype, health and even what situation the living beings are in (one being chased by the others). It even gives specific info one WHO one of the people are. If that sort of thing can be detected by such a general spell, Slaughter Shaman isn't that far of a stretch.

It's not abuse of detection either. If I want to detect Shaman's in the next room with Slaughter Shaman, I better not want to talk to any of them, cause they're dead or pissed. A quick Assenssing test will reveal that I'm the jerk who did it. Such a spell is very limited in scope.

Considering all that, what do you think?
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 6 2006, 07:14 PM
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oops. Wrote all that before considering Lorechaser's post.

Still, if you had a Ork Humanis goon that's blind and always thought he was human, would Detect Orks work on him? I'd say yes, regardless of how he considers himself. Or consider this, Detect Individual is based on your observations of the person, not his own self-image. An anorexic woman is going to think of her outward appearance differently than you would, but if you met her you could still detect her with Detect Individual. Your very limited first-impressions have no bearing on whether the spell works or not. Just that you have a first hand impression at all.
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Casper
post Sep 7 2006, 08:44 AM
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Slay (Awakened)?
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Cabral
post Sep 7 2006, 10:04 AM
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As a general rule, I try to restrict detection spells to what you could normally perceive. I know this conflicts with certain existing spells (like detct enemies), but that's my guideline and I bend from there. :)
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 7 2006, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Cabral)
As a general rule, I try to restrict detection spells to what you could normally perceive. I know this conflicts with certain existing spells (like detct enemies), but that's my guideline and I bend from there. :)

Which, for a mage, includes such things as emotions, health, and technomancers. It's not far fetched to say a spell can seek out a certain energy, especially if you can assense and interpret that energy on a daily basis. A spell is pure mana, I doubt it would have the same limtiations on perception that mundane characters have. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, maybe you meant to include assensing in your "normally perceiveable" category? Could you elaborate?

Would a Dragon in disguise be immune to Detect Dragons in your games? With Shapechange or whatever alternate form power they use, detecting their true form is only really possible through assensing.

@Casper: Is that a question? A suggestion?
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NightHaunter
post Sep 7 2006, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (Casper)
Slay (Awakened)?

Slay(Magician).

Slay awakened is too generic.
Includes anything touched be magicin the awakening: mages, elves, barguests, random plantlife, everything!
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Apathy
post Sep 7 2006, 06:02 PM
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Let them have Slay(Awakened), but make it touch range, and area effect...
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Conskill
post Sep 7 2006, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (2bit)
tradition is pretty gray... is it ok to use spells to learn information about people in such indirect ways? If I can cast Detect Shaman, can I cast Detect Homosexual? Detect Cop? Awakened at least is something written into your genes.

Slay(Tradition) wouldn't be like Slay(Sexual Orientation), since you could make a strong case that sexual orientation is at least partially genetic in nature, and could be a valid target for such a spell.

Things Slay(Tradition) would conceptually allow:

Slay(Democrat) [as people politically inclined to be Democrats, not necessarily members of the Democratic Party]
Slay(Yale Graduate)
Slay(Humanis) [as people who are racist, not necessarily members of the Humanis Policlub]
Slay(UCAS Politicians)
Slay(Existential Philosophers)
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Eryk the Red
post Sep 7 2006, 07:12 PM
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Well, I'd say you couldn't make a Slay (sexual orientation) spell unless you've concluded that by 2070, it's been proven that sexuality is genetic. You'd need to be able to pinpoint that to be able to write the spell formula for it (to define what the spell is looking for).

Otherwise, it's like Slay People Who Like Chocolate Ice Cream.
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Jaid
post Sep 7 2006, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
After all, metatype isn't really genetic, is it? It is, by virtue of the name given to it (Unexplained Genetic Expression), undetectable through examination of the genes. It is most likely a mana based characteristic.

actually, it is unexplained genetic expression, not "nongenetic random transformation".

IOW, yes, it is genetic, and yes you can tell someone's metatype by their genes. some of the genes involved are a little wonky, but iirc in one of the books they indicated that those genes were being sorted out as further research was being done (probably man & machine... i think it was talking about genetech anyways.)

as a particular example of this, one of the first (if not the first itself) shadowruns written was DNA/DOA or something like that. part of the concept of the run was that someone was working to genetically change orks into humans or something like that (though iirc, the work was being used in other ways also, like making diseases to target specific metatypes and whatnot).

of course, i may be misremembering, but that's what i recall anyways...

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2bit
post Sep 7 2006, 08:39 PM
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Best to keep it to boolean biological distinctions, readily identifiable characteristics ("people wearing hats", "people holding guns") and things readable in auras: emotions, presence of cyber, etc. I would like to think sexual preference is more complex than a boolean straight/bi/gay so I'm using that excuse to disallow it.

(I guess boolean isnt the right word when there's three things... whatever)

Next question: does Masking your aura as a mundane protect you from Slay Magician? (answer: yes)

Slay Homo is now Slay Creature of Same Gender Currently Aroused By Me.
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Shrike30
post Sep 7 2006, 08:53 PM
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Slay Gay People If I'm They're Type, Or The Occasional Straight Guy Who's Kinda Drunk If I'm Kind Of Androgynous sounds like a great spell :P
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Cognitive Resona...
post Sep 7 2006, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Which, for a mage, includes such things as emotions, health, and technomancers.

Can mages detect, or in any way perceive resonance now?
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Conskill
post Sep 7 2006, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE (Cognitive Resonance)
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Sep 7 2006, 10:05 AM)
Which, for a mage, includes such things as emotions, health, and technomancers.

Can mages detect, or in any way perceive resonance now?

They can detect if someone's a Technomancer on a sufficently successful Assensing test. There's no indication they can otherwise detect Resonance (though it's a valid question to ask, "What the heck are they seeing in the aura that screams Technomancer?").
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Cognitive Resona...
post Sep 7 2006, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Conskill)
They can detect if someone's a Technomancer on a sufficently successful Assensing test. There's no indication they can otherwise detect Resonance (though it's a valid question to ask, "What the heck are they seeing in the aura that screams Technomancer?").

THis gets more interesting, because I thought BBB4 pretty much stated that technomancers and resonance had never been offically "proven" to exist.
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hyzmarca
post Sep 7 2006, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Sep 7 2006, 03:53 PM)
Slay Gay People If I'm They're Type, Or The Occasional Straight Guy Who's Kinda Drunk If I'm Kind Of Androgynous sounds like a great spell :P

I would prefer Physical Mask limited to the Form of a Very Hot Chick limited to targets who are Gay if I'm They're Type or The Occasional Straight Guy Who's Kinda Drunk if I'm Kind of Androgynous.

You can't be too picky and I'd hope that physical mask is able to provide an apparently functional vagina.
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 7 2006, 10:33 PM
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Okay, maybe tradition is too far. But there are spells out there that are really weird. They detect characteristics that aren't detectable through any other means. Masking isn't even factored into whether a spell hits, like Detect Individual.

When meeting a person pretending to be another, does your Detect Individual spell detect the faker, the owner of the assumed identity, or no one at all?

Regardless, for now I'll keep spells I introduce to our games limited to characteristics that can be seen with mundane senses, assensing tests, and scientific analysis.
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Cabral
post Sep 8 2006, 05:03 AM
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I can't think of any Detect [SMAM!] spells that detect anything other what can be perceived via mundane senses or with one, maybe two hits on an assensing test. I think that's a good guideline for new Detect spells.
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WhiskeyMac
post Sep 8 2006, 05:43 AM
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I'd like a Detect Very Hot Chick That's Looking For Someone To Sleep With And Will Take Anyone At This Point :D (-1 Threshold if alcohol is involved on her part)
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