 Twinking out the Ally, Flexibility of ally spirits |
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 Sep 7 2006, 09:10 AM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948  |
What to do with an Ally Spirit?
Most people thinks that your average Ally Spirit is a new cool magical pet, it’s not, nor is it a tool. It is more of a friend who will kick your ass if you push it too far. Remember, if you abuse someone and they get away they will get even. That said, let’s see how we can design our new ally. Choose Force A force 3 is average and would take care of most mundane problems and would probably not raise too many eyebrows. Choose form This is where the versatility of an Ally Spirit can actually shine with materialization power. Pick as many forms as you can because they have a number of tactical advantages. 1. Nude human male 2. Nude human female 3. Invisible humanoid 4. Alien drone (Gigers Alien) 5. Sasquatch 6. Housecat 7. Dog 8. Rotodrone 9. Household Electronics (Commlink, toaster etc) Ok, now we have several forms, what can they do then? Well, the human forms can offer distractions, wear armor, carry weapons and with time learn to use them and almost become an extension and lifeguard of the mage. The alien? Well, how would YOU feel if an alien suddenly popped up beside you inside your car during a high speed chase? The sasquatch? As the alien but how would YOU feel if a sasquatch popped into your car during a high speed chase and KISSED you? Remember, only your imagination is your limitation. Besides, an ally spirit with Fx2+an armor jacket aint bad, give them a gun as well and you have something with fast initiative and high armor. Choose powers This all depends on your goal but most of the available powers are useful, with an ally using several forms then Realistic form is very useful since they also start with it for free. Choose Skills Well, they start with Dodge and Unarmed so a ranged weapon skill is not something to sneer about. Well, come on, what other useful things have you discovered with ally spirits? |
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Sep 15 2006, 06:56 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Whiteland, IN Member No.: 9,169 |
I can't even start thinking about it yet. I have to save up a bunch of karma first. A LOT of karma!
But... I was thinking about giving it the possession power and then having it possess my character. Just kidding, my gm would never allow it and it is just too game breaking for my taste but a fun idea for an npc bad guy! :D gunsnammo |
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Sep 15 2006, 07:40 PM
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#3
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
??? That's my intention with my character, if I ever get to play instead of GMing. I have a cool but painfully shy voodoo priestess who becomes... different... when the spirits are riding her. The intention is that she should save up for an ally spirit that will regularly possess her. The spirits going to look like an idealised, more outgoing twin of herself. All great role-playing. :) |
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Sep 15 2006, 08:13 PM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
So the goal is twinking out the Ally spirit? Sure.
OK, let's consider the powers that Ally Spirits have that are really unique: First of all, you can mix/match powers any way you want. That means that you can get power combinations that aren't normally possible, but it also means that you can make selections from the optional powers lists over and over again. Never buy powers, because for just 3 more Karma you can get a Force Point. And a Force Point comes with a power anyway - it's a no-brainer. So there you are with a Force 5 spirit, you can give it 5 powers. Let's give it the Skill power of a Task Spirit five times. Ta-daa! You now have a quite presentable Hacker who has the entire Cracking group and Computer and Data Search. Not bad for 40 Karma, eh? Pop that up to Force 6 for a total of 48 Karma and it not only Hacks at Skill 6, it also has Guard which means that it can Guard itself and it never glitches. Give it Inhabitation and slap it into some poor guy who already had a bunch of cyberware and you can really go all out with the Hacking. Expensive, but impressive. Alternately, what if we wanted to make a combat monster? Well, first and most obviously we're going to want to make our spirit based on Inhabitation, because that's where the juice comes from. Some paltry fools will try to get you to abduct a Troll or something because they are weak of will and don't know power gaming when they see it. Fuck that, we're going to make a Fllesh Form Inhabitation for our spirit into a Vampire Magician. Boo-yeah! That's right, we're sending out an ally that "has the vessel's skills" - where the Vessel was a damned Vampire Magician. Also it's still an Inhabited Spirit, so it gets to add its Force (6) to the Vampire's Reaction (somewhere between 5 and 8), and then it can jack its Reaction up even higher by sacrificing Essence because it can also do that - so you're looking at an Ally that is rolling perhaps as many as 20 dice to Dodge bullets without even going on Full Defense. That's quality right there. And while you're at it, hand out some Guardian abilities - I'm fond of Guard, Magical Guard, and Exotic Melee Weapon - that's a character running around with 19+ dice with a Monowhip and she can't ever Glitch. If you're willing to capture the BBEG from one adventure and implant your Ally in her, you can go into crazy town and run for public office. -Frank |
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Sep 15 2006, 08:21 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Except for ally improvement, of course, where it's 5 vs. 16. But since you've stated how much that aggravates you, I can imagine you may house rule it away. Still, by the rules if you've been playing with your Force 4 ally and suddenly realize it really needs Concealment, after all, buying the power alone may be best. |
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Sep 15 2006, 08:26 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
You designed the Voodoo tradition, didn't you? I get a pain in my heart every time I look at its spirit list.
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Sep 15 2006, 09:25 PM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Heh. No, that distinction goes to Stephen Kenson I think. The update to SR4 was done by Peter Taylor. I just happened to write a conversion that looked... really similar... in September of 2005:
Since then, the Ancestor Spirit has been renamed the "Guidance Spirit", the Warrior Spirit renamed the "Guardian Spirit", and the Worker Spirit renamed the "Task Spirit". So when it got written up by Peter Taylor he chose different spell asignments than I did, and that was his section so that's what the final assignments were. There's substantial room for differences in setup, the only Loa in the original who taugh Manipulation spells did so as a secondary schtick. Legba, for example, was all upons about Detection spells and also did Manipulation. So to give each spirit type a 1:1 correspondance with a spell category by definition requires that you mix some stuff up - there's a big cluster fuck on Health and Detection spells in the classic Voodoo tradition written by Kenson. That being said, I have no idea why Agwe gets Detection in Street Magic, it seems like there are plenty of Loa after that one (Damballah, Erzulie, Legba, and Loco), so handing out Detection to a Loa that actually didn't have it before is not something I understand - but then it's not my call. That being said, what gives you a pain in the heart when you see the spirit list? It's pretty much what they got back in 1995 when the tradition was first penned in 2nd edition. Were you hoping for an Air Spirit in there? -Frank |
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Sep 15 2006, 09:52 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
It's just that in the brave new world of flexible spirit choices among ten options, Voodoo ended up with by far the most diverse assortment and access to the widest variety of spirit powers, which I think is especially important with Possession traditions. So I think they have the most powerful and versatile assortment. The elemental spirits are pretty interchangeable, except for Fire being the best basic elemental spirit package for physical damage dealing before using up optional powers (and at higher Force being equal/superior to Beast even in one on one damage). So Voodoo keeps the one elemental spirit with a unique power (Weather Control), adds Guardian with its combat skills and access to Animal Control and Elemental Attack, Guidance with Divination and another (in some ways superior/unique) Engulf option, Task with Technical/Physical skills, and Man with Innate Spell (the biggie usually given up by new SM traditions to get a fun new spirit). Two of these, of course, have Magical Guard, and if you were dumb enough to prefer Shadow Cloak to Concealment you've got it. Let's see, you don't have access to...Venom, Silence, and Noxious Breath? I can live without those. Shorter heart twinge: having Guardian and Task without losing Man is a pretty big deal, I think. |
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Sep 15 2006, 10:57 PM
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#9
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I houseruled that possession traditions ally spirits have possession instead of manifestation, which redresses the odd balance of one tradition set having more options than others (because manifest tradition allies can't get possession but the reverse wasn't true). I figured that this was an oversight on the designers part.
Not that it's likely to come up any time soon. |
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Sep 15 2006, 11:07 PM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Ah. That's pretty reasonable. I've heard the new stuff blasted for being overpowered and underpowered, so I wasn't sure which way you were going. But you're right that some spirits mesh with Possession better than others. Every spirit has a selling point, and the Air Spirit's "highest Agility & Reaction, therefore best combat dice pools" and the Earth Spirit's "highest Strength and therefore largest useful carrying capacity" don't even apply to a Possessin Tradition. So for a possession tradition to not get Air or Earth Spirits is not even really a sacrifice - despite the fact that those spirits are awesome for a Materializing tradition. But it's not an accident that Voodoo ends up with a spirit set that works almost perfectly for a possession tradition. They are the Possession Tradition. Seriously, they've been doing their thing for over 11 years and three editions worth of possession rules have been written based entirely on their needs. Including this one. Voodoo is the standard by which everyone is set, and both the Guidance and the Guardian spirit are designed based on the needs of Voodoo. (Interesting note: the Task Spirit was originally called the "Worker Spirt" and has the classic power list of the Insect Worker. The Insect Worker is separate from the Task Spirit because the Threats author decided that Threats wouldn't be "cool enough" unless they were based on unique spirit templates.) Any of the spirits other than Air or Earth work pretty well as Possession spirits. Plant Spirits, for example, make for a great Possession, especially once you have Invoking. A Great Form Plant Spirit can be implanted into hosts as a healing agent - grant some wounded fool Regeneration for a while and you've rendered doctoring moot (admittedly at the cost of drain sufficient to kill a great dragon). That's quality. And of course, even Earth Spirits get some interesting unique abilities once Invoking is thrown into the equation. But the long story short is that Houngans have virtually the ideal spirits for their type of summoning because the spirits in question were written with the needs of their tradition in mind. And that is (partially) my fault. -Frank |
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Sep 17 2006, 02:08 AM
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#11
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No... it's something far more sinister: Setting Consistency. The Ally has been a unique spirit type since it was first written at the tail end of the 80s. And as a unique spirit type, it had its own power list, which naturally enough included materialization. Since at that time each spirit was given its own writeup, the fact that Voodoo Loa got their own possession power was written up in the loa themselves, and was therefore not something that could be inherited by other spirits called up by the magician (such as Allies). So for the last 11 years, Houngans have been running around with Loa that were obligate possessors, and Allies that worked just like everyone else's - a choice between Materialization and Inhabitation. Was that an oversight? Possibly, I'm honestly not sure, I wasn't part of those discussions, because I was in High School. But the point is that now Houngans have been running around with materializing allies for 11 years. There are characters who have had these spirits for longer than some Shadowrun players have been alive. To take that option away now would have been... cruel. Also weird, since at this point it's well established canon that Houngans can conjure allies that do that. -Frank |
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Sep 17 2006, 03:48 AM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
that didn't exactly stop them from removing channelling. or from removing spell locks. (i'm not even 100% clear on what spell locks where, they seem a lot like sustaining foci, but i've seen people describe them as different.... ) point being, they seem to not mind just removing things if they want to badly enough. (mind you, those two decisions in particular were not actually under the current administration, so to speak =P ) |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:46 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 9-December 03 From: Greenville, SC Member No.: 5,889 |
As far as I can recall, Spell Locks were the same thing as a sustaining foci. I don't recall channeling. The rule change that broke consistency the most for me was the removal of grounding. Grounding was the ability of a mage on the Astral to cast area spells into a dual natured object or being, and have them carry though to the real world. As I recall, when grounding through a foci, the force of the spell was reduced by the force of the foci. I don't remember how it worked if you grounded through a dual natured creature. One of these days I may re-introduce grounding as a metamagic technique. I never did come up with a good in-game explanation for why mages in 2050 could do something that is now impossible, other than a vague handwave about the nature of the astral / physical barrier changing as mana levels rose. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:20 AM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
A Spell Lock was like a Sustaining Focus except:
I think that covers it. It was really broken, and at the same time incredibly fragile. Essentially it would blow up, taking your Karma (and since those were the days of grounding - probably your life) if any astral dude looked at it funny, but for the duration of it being active it would make you the rockstar at as close to no cost as is possible without actually being free. So it put the GM in a bad situation. If he let you run wild and free with them, you would turn into an Oranutan hiding behind an astral barrier with bonuses to all your stats and make everyone cry. But if the GM broke your toys then he was the asshole. It was hard all around. So they were replaced with sustaioning foci, which have costs and limits that everyone can feel good about and people can shut them down and you don't lose them forever and we can all get along and be happy. -Frank |
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Sep 17 2006, 08:54 AM
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#15
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Deliberate or error, appropriate allies in my game are limited to possession. I personally recommend this to anyone starting a new game or converting an old game where it's never come up or can be overlooked. Statring from scratch, consistency between the elements of the game system is more important than consistency with previous systems.
My 0.02¥ -K. |
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Sep 17 2006, 09:48 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Am I late on the draw by noting that you can always twink out your ally spirit by making it an Ares Viper Sliver gun, and having sex with it?
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Sep 17 2006, 04:25 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
No option for inhabitation, the permanent possession? In any case, I like this rule for the same reason George Carlin likes people who fear their public water supply. Other people's GM paranoia gimping new player options (good luck finding enough karma to get an ally that can reliably possess anything but the summoner or a prepared vessel that is tactically useless on 90% of shadowruns) makes me happy. |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:34 PM
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#18
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's pretty simple:
Thus, Ally Spirits conjured by possession-based traditions feature the Possession and Inhabitation Powers, instead of Matrialization and Inhabitation. |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:59 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
You have noticed that allies require a separate metamagic, haven't you? That metamagic can provide spirit abilities that basic spirits cannot? That allies are themselves not a basic spirit in the first place? And that the ally rules explicitly state that all allies can be given Materialization or Inhabitation? You can of course change this, but it would indeed require a certain simplicity to think there is a massive error in the ally description.
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Sep 17 2006, 05:19 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yeah, sorry about that... that was the one i was thinking of lol... got the names mixed up :P |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:22 PM
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#21
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. That doesn't even affect the rule.
Sure. And those additional abilities are not affected by that rule.
Yet they are a spirit that is summoned, thus the rule affects them.
Indeed, which is the only place where the replacement rule comes into play.
There is no need for change, as the RAW already says 'if (Summoner.possession-based) then (s/Materialization/Possession)'. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:40 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Are you familiar with the adage that the specific overrules the general? It requires a very strange sort of mind to think that the Ally rules, covering a unique kind of spirit not subject to normal rules, are subject to the normal rules in a way explicitly laid out as operating differently in the Ally description.
This is even sillier than the people who think you can give Quake or Storm powers to Allies. I'll admit that a literal reading of the rules would allow the addition of Possession as an optional/bonus power in addition to the Materialization/Inhabitation choice (although obviously not of much use in the latter instance), but anything else is at best willful blindness. Every time I see one of these bizarre rule interpretations I expect to see them followed by a link to an explanation of how the Bush administration really blew up the Twin Towers. Of course, the nice thing about Shadowrun is that you can change reality to conform to your beliefs about how the universe should operate. Not recognizing that's what you're doing, however, is a bad prescription for life in general. I must say my kindhearted and charitable concern for the wellbeing of others does get exhausting at times. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:47 PM
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#23
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Hmmm. Hadn't spottted that. I think Rotbart wins on a technicality. And as it's a technicality that fits the fluff, I'm keeping it. Good catch though, SlitheryD. I had forgotten to include Inhabitation in there. However, as this is a subtitution for Materialisation, I would guess it should also be a substitution for Possession. So if you're a Possession based tradition, I suppose your ally can have Inhabitation OR Possession. After all, you couldn't have a Qabbalist initiate without a golem, eh? ;) EDIT: Just seen SD's reply. Not convinced. The rules on possession is clearly meant to apply across the board saying:
There is no additional backing up of this under the headings of Guardian, Plant or other types of spirits. Why should there be under Ally? |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:49 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No. Rules overrule rules only if this is explicitly stated.
Not really. You claim that Allies are not affected - prove it.
AFAIS, there is no rule preventing the use of Invoking towards an ally, nor the use of Sacrifice.
No. Posession replaces Materialization.
Oh, my.
If those involuntary associations trouble you, you should get help - they sure are treatable.
Of course, so you are perfectly allowed to implement materializing Allies for Possession Traditions as a houserule.
Errr, yes.
Of course, as the rules for possession-based traditions don't affect the choice of Inhabitation at all. |
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Sep 17 2006, 07:38 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
If you read your own bit about the possesion quality, you notice that it goes "Otherwise, all normal rules for summoned or bound spirits remain in effect." That refers to regular spirit summoning and binding, which an ally spirit is not (true, you summon it, but it's not your typical sort of summon). I always took inhabitation as the 'greater' form of possession, something only more powerful spirits would do (like an ally spirit) because they needed a more solid link to the world to perform as they must. Materialization is simply the spirit providing its own body, which is nice, but doesn't have some of the perks a genuine physical body can supply. Also, isn't it true an inhabiting spirit can't leave it's vessel? You can't possess if you can't leave the flesh behind, and I recall that benefit only being a free spirit thing... Admittedly, I liked the idea of possession being an available power to an ally spirit. They go astral, and take someone over or whatever. ^-^; But that would only work on a Materializing spirit at that point, if at all. Just 1.5 bits. I think I lost the other chunk, which would explain some of my nuttiness. |
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