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> A Mage and his Buffs, magic limitations in perspective
Samaels Ghost
post Sep 9 2006, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE
not all mages have acess to all spells- but its not all the fancy spells that make a mage deadly.


There's been a lot of off-handed comments about how magic characters are the only viable character builds because of how "uber" they are. The Anti-magic thread was supposed to be encouragement for people to build Sammies. The thread does provide plenty of useful tips, hopefully giving people good ideas for playing their Sammy.

But the conversation there always seems to degrade into "Mages are uber! That's no fair! They can do everything better than a Sammy, what chance do they have?" So in an effort to put magic builds in perspective I want to compile a list of reasons why the mages isn't as uber as you think he is. He has limitations, and so does the Adept. People tend to ignore these limitations or cite 400 Karma Initiates as examples of the unbalance between the builds.

The first and one of the most important limitations is the limit of one's spells known. Not every mage knows every spell, like the quote above points out. Improved Invisibility, Improved Reflexes, Detect Enemies, Combat Senses,
Manabolt, Stunbolt, Control Thoughts, Heal, Inc Attributes, Armor, Astral Armor, Levitate, Physical Barrier, Mana Barrier. If you had all those SURE you'd be prepared for almost anything. That doesn't mean you're not going to have to buy all those spells. That's around 50ish Karma. The mages you go up against aren't going to be prepared for every situation.

Sustaining modifiers are a severe limitation. Sustaining hits you with culumulative modifiers making it very unlikely that later buffs or combat spells will reach their full potential. You just won't be able to hit al the way up to Force or even enough to get past modest spell resistance. Many of the "uber" spells above are buffs. Sustaining multiple ones on yourself or others just isn't going to work unless you have many different sustaining foci, which costs even more Karma. Assuming the uber mages out there have their best spells sustained with max hits all the time is absurd and definite grounds for addiction. They just can't do that without foci. An Adept's powers don't slap you with mods, but they do force you into very specialized roles if you don't spread out your Power Points. Spreading them out isn't always the greatest idea, and some times just not worth what you're paying. Several levels of a certain power are neccesary for you to get your Karma's worth. Adepts are often counterd by the same means a Sammy can be, so they aren't really anything to worry about.

Everyone knows mages suck up Karma.

Sure, magic can replicate much of what an implant can accomplish and then some, but it very tough to pay for and maintain.

Whenever you catch yourself thinking "But what if the mage had this?! Johnny Samurai can't handle that particular angle! THat's no fair!" remember, you can't cover all the bases, even if you're a mage


Pitch in everyone! Rub the inadequacies of the Awakened in their collective faces. Remind them of their limitations and remind the mundane of their freedom from these silly limitations. Sustaining mods? I spit upon them!

NOTE: Don't turn this into Sammy vs. Mages. Keep it to "This is why mages aren't so all-powerful." Thank you for input in advance :D

EDIT: Took out my comments that feel into the Sammy vs. Mages category. I want to keep myself on topic :D
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James McMurray
post Sep 9 2006, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE
A Sammy with the right gear probably can be for far less Karma.


I'm not saying mages are horribly broken (they aren't) or sammies are worthless (they aren't) but I had to point out the flaw in this statement: mages and sammies can use the same gear.

Where a sammie shines is the ability to do multiple things, whereas magical characters tend to be hyper focused because of how expensive they are to build.
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 9 2006, 07:32 PM
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Yeah, more nonsense on my part. I meant to focus on mage limitations, not sammy advantages.
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ShadowDragon
post Sep 9 2006, 08:28 PM
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This goes along with the whole karma sink disadvantage - mages typically have average to infereror physical stats because they have to spend so much BP/karma on the magic attribute, drain attribute, spells, and foci. This makes them easier to hit with bullets and easier to kill with bullets. Sure the armor spell or inc attribute can mitigate some of that damage, but only with a sustaining penalty or further karma sink.

It's also worth noting that the inc reflexes spell does not increase reaction like wired and SB. So while mages are getting those extra IPs and faster initiative, they can't dodge bullets like their cybered up cousins.
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Mistwalker
post Sep 9 2006, 08:44 PM
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When a mage has buffed himself up, either sustaining the spells, or with foci, he is very vulnerable to an astral creature (spirit, projecting mage, etc...) dispelling the spells.

If the mage is protecting his buffs, he has less time to watch himself or his team in the mundane world.
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James McMurray
post Sep 9 2006, 08:57 PM
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Mages with active spells set off ward alarms and risk those spells being dispelled and foci deactivated. Since most places worth breaking into in a moderate power level campaign have a ward, this is a major problem for the mage that likes to run around buffed and act like a street sam.
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Slithery D
post Sep 9 2006, 09:00 PM
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Well, he's vulnerable to the three spirit types in SM that have Magical Guard. We still don't have any rules for attacking active foci/spells in SM, so I guess that's just not an option in SR4. Against most spirits the only problem with a sustained spell is that it makes it easier to spot you on astral patrol, but at that point all it can do (unless it's a Guardian/Guidance/Plant spirit) is materialize and attack or go warn its summoner.
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hyzmarca
post Sep 9 2006, 09:21 PM
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When it comes to sustained spells, one should not consider all of the spells that a mage may have. One should only consider the spells that give the mage the greatest advantage.

Shadowrun, like all games, tends toward a Nash equilibrium as the players become more skilled. We can assume that a mage with a rational player of a certain skill level will always use the optimal strategy and we can assume that a enemy with a rational player of a certain skill level will always use the optimal strategy to counter the mage's optimal strategy.

First of all, if the mage knows his enemy's name then he will not bother with buffs. His optimal strategy will be to summon and bind as many high-force spirits as possible and then send them all on a remote service to kill the enemy. This round goes to the mage. Swarmed by half a dozen spirits the enemy does not stand a chance.

However, we can assume that the mage does not have the enemy's name. In this case, spirits are less than useful. Commanding a spirit takes a simple action and that spirit may not be able to act until the next combat turn. This essentially gives the enemy a free attack on the mage and two free attacks if the mage does not have a high firearms skill. For this reason, the mage will not command a spirit in combat unless he has full cover. Likewise, the optimal enemy will not initiate combat with the mage if the mage is near cover.

Increased Reflexes seems like the perfect buff due to the extra IPs. However, those extra IPs are only useful if your enemy is still standing after the first one. Since we can assume that the enemy has some sort of initiative enhancement this is a bad this for the mage. However, it is even worse for the mage if the enemy gets free actions and the extra initiative dice are more useful than the extra IPs. Therefore, the mage should always have Increased Reflexes in a sustaining or anchoring focus.
In order to increase his initiate dice the optimum mage will also have the maximum possible intuition score and he will choose a tradition that resists drain with intuition for good measure. He will also sacrifice a point of magic in exchange for reaction enhancers at the maximum possible level. Increased Reaction is not viable due to the high threshold and force requirements. A force 7 sustaining focus is rather expensive.
He will also keep a point of edge in reserve so that he can spend it in order to take the first action. Of course, he expects the enemy to do the same.

The cost of this is that the mage has a relatively low body, strength, and agility. He won't be very useful with firearms, melee combat, or taking damage. The optimal mage is designed to kill fast and kill first.
His spell of choice will be manaball but he will also have manabolt for those times when his teammates are in the way. This is because the optimal tank character will have a pain editor. He will overcast the spell at the maximum possible force, either 8 or 10 in this case, probably 10 because it is optimal. His chances of glitching are low, all things being equal. He has 6 sorcery skill and a specialization in combat spells.

The enemy and the mage attempt to surprise each other, the attempt will fail. Neither will be near cover since both know how important cover will be. The mage has his spirits and the enemy has his timed hand grenades. Both are suicidal without cover but superior with cover. Therefore, it all comes down to an initiative roll. The optimized mage will be rolling 7+5+3. The optimized samurai or adept, will be rolling 8+5-1 due to the pain editor which he must have to protect him from stunbolts. Although, he can bluff and leave the pain editor off. The mage, oddly, has a advantage here due to the quirks of the Increased Reflexes spell.
Next we have the actual attack phase. The enemy, if he goes first, will be firing a mini-grenade launcher with impact primed grenades since it is most optimal. He will be rolling 4+8+2 dice and the mage will be rolling 7 dice to doge. The mage can't use full defense since the lost IP is suicide. The enemy will fire two shots. The first will put the mage into overflow and the second will reduce him to a bloody smear on the sidewalk.
If the mage goes first he will cast manabolt at the maximum force, one may assume 10. The enemy will be rolling about 4 dice to resist without counterspelling and he will fail. With counterspelling it is a toss up. The single attack may or may not put him into overflow depending on how many net successes the magician gets and how much body the enemy has. Assuming that the enemy is a troll with body enhancements and/or cyberlimbs, he may just survive to kill the magician with his grenades.

Of course, the mage could simply neglect his magic attribute, get decent agility and buy a grenade launcher of his own. If he does that, all that matters is the initiative score which he has an advantage with. Not even a troll can withstand two direct grenade hits.




Note that I'm not trying to make this into sammie vs. mage so much as I am trying to demonstrate the optimal mage setup. This is true with mages vs mages, as well. Increased Reflexes, Reaction Enhancers, and a MGL-12s together make for superior mages. Unfortunatly, neglecting one's magic attribute and skills makes the mage inferior on the astral plane. For that reason, this set-up is probably best with mystic adepts.
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James McMurray
post Sep 9 2006, 10:36 PM
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All very nice, except that those optimal setups and situations rarely happen. It's a nice thought experiment, but unlikely to see the tabletop more than once or twice in a career (if that often).
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 9 2006, 11:47 PM
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Can anyone give an example of the catch-all mage that seems to be Boogey man around here? Where is this mage/adept that everyone has to have?
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Slithery D
post Sep 9 2006, 11:58 PM
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If it comes to fighting, the optimal general strategy is to do astral overwatch just like old deckers did matrix overwatch. Astrally project from a safe location, find the astral defenders, kill them (sustaining penalties for binding don't matter if you've got enough of them and they're doing all of your fighting for you), then bomb the sec force with spirits. Your team still need some spell help on the spot? Send them a spirit of man with the spell they need. Wards keeping you out? Well, your build is probably optimized for astral combat, and bashing through anything other than a reflecting ward isn't that hard and doesn't take that long (for reflecting wards, use Shattershield).

If you take your meatbod along you're vulnerable to mages and bullets. If you just go astrally, you're only vulnerable to mages. Of course, the opposition knows this, too, which is why ever since the original Lone Star sourcebook we've been told that a call of criminal magic use brings a couple of astral projecting cops with spirits in tow pretty quickly. Extraterritorial corps with serious assets in a city will do something similar with their own security forces, or hire someone like Knight Errant to provide it if the site is important enough.

So unless you're prepared to defeat the onsite security and whatever astral cops come in to establish "astral supremacy" and start bombing your team with attack spirits, the optimal strategy is actually to only attack targets of little importance that don't have access to the astral fuzz, don't use magic to attract their attention, or use it so well or so fast that they don't notice or are unconscious/dead before they can call in the cavalry.

Good luck with that.

Seriously, intelligently designed magical security and astral response will be able to stomp all over any one or two mage team unless they're much better than average (which they probably are over the poor saps who sign up with the Star, but it still means you should be doing a lot more astral combat than you probably are).

If I were running astral security, I'd have every ward set up by a team of at least 3 mages. When someone trips it, one of those guys is going to be awake and not on vacation, and under standing orders to call in the intrusion to a central HQ. The HQ calls the site to ask if they know of any reason the ward got tripped (visitor who forgot to drop his sustained spell, maybe). Without a positive response, they send in the response team of a pair of mages with whatever summoned spirits they've got that day. I'd certainly have my response guys practice finding our contracted sits as fast as possible, so the only reasonable delay would be for the phone calls to go from warding magicians to HQ to site. Call it a couple of minutes on average before they confirm/assume an intrusion and send in the cavalry.

Sounds insurmountable, doesn't it? Well, you can have your GM ignore this common sense stuff, as the vast majority no doubt do. Or you can not ever break a ward, as the majority of teams try to do. And, of course, you can try not to give any sec team you attack with magic time to make an SOS to the remote astral patrol, which may not be feasible. So who saves you from the astral response team? Why, the hacker of course. Intercept that phone call from the security firm/unit and tell them some idiot mage on site or visiting accidentally wandered across a ward with a sustained spell. False alarm, nothing to worry about here.

Other options include astral ambushes, hopefully at the optimum time just after dusk/dawn, so the patrol's spirits will be newly summoned and they'll stlll be suffering from drain. Or have a warded escape route - run into a warded room and then disappear through a hatch into the sewers or something while they're deciding whether to go through the ward and risk ambush by a mess of bound spirits lying in ambush.
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James McMurray
post Sep 10 2006, 02:39 AM
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Also Hyz, you did one thing wrong in your Mage vs. Sammie duel. The mage only needs one net success with Mind Control to say "Kill yourself" and have the sammie spend the next few rounds dropping grenades at his own feet. :)

Combat spells are for chumps whose GM wised up and introduced some checks to the mind control magics. ;)
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hyzmarca
post Sep 10 2006, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
Also Hyz, you did one thing wrong in your Mage vs. Sammie duel. The mage only needs one net success with Mind Control to say "Kill yourself" and have the sammie spend the next few rounds dropping grenades at his own feet. :)

Combat spells are for chumps whose GM wised up and introduced some checks to the mind control magics. ;)

The optimal tank will be using a personafix BTL distributed by the same not-for-profit group that runs the suicide matrix hotline in an attempt to curb the number of self-inflicted deaths. This personafix would make it impossible for a character to have suicidal thoughts, thus rendering that tactic useless.

:D
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Jaid
post Sep 10 2006, 03:06 AM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
Also Hyz, you did one thing wrong in your Mage vs. Sammie duel. The mage only needs one net success with Mind Control to say "Kill yourself" and have the sammie spend the next few rounds dropping grenades at his own feet. :)

Combat spells are for chumps whose GM wised up and introduced some checks to the mind control magics. ;)

no, actually control thoughts is only any good if the mage has surprise on his side. because otherwise, it goes something like this:

round 1) mage controls the sammy's thoughts. sammy shoots mage in the face twice with his ares alpha, once being a frag grenade (probably dead on) and once with a 4 round burst of ex-ex rounds. the mage dies horribly.

round 2) mage attempts (posthumously) to order the sammy to kill himself. sadly, when he lost conciousness he was unable to sustain the spell, and therefore nothing happens. also, wherever his "spirit" is (for lack of a better term), it certainly is not on the physical plane, and therefore he cannot target the sammy with another spell. shammy laughs at the mage for standing there looking at him funny instead of trying to not die.

remember, it's an action to give an order ;)
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Dissonance
post Sep 10 2006, 03:15 AM
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Also, I could have sworn that I've seen it stated that obviously suicidal orders are immediately disregarded. However, I can't be arsed to look it up.
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James McMurray
post Sep 10 2006, 06:05 AM
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From the spell: "The caster seizes control of the target’s mind, directing everything the target does."

It doesn't say "controls everything the target does unless he has a BTL" and it especially doesn't say "controls everything the target does except that he can still do whatever he wants (including shoot you).

Edit: it doesn't say anything about suicidal orders being ignored, but that's a good start for a house rule.
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ShadowDragon
post Sep 10 2006, 06:16 AM
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QUOTE (Dissonance)
Also, I could have sworn that I've seen it stated that obviously suicidal orders are immediately disregarded. However, I can't be arsed to look it up.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of DnD
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hyzmarca
post Sep 10 2006, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
From the spell: "The caster seizes control of the target’s mind, directing everything the target does."

It doesn't say "controls everything the target does unless he has a BTL" and it especially doesn't say "controls everything the target does except that he can still do whatever he wants (including shoot you).

Edit: it doesn't say anything about suicidal orders being ignored, but that's a good start for a house rule.

Taking control of the character's mind shouldn't matter very much if the character's mind is not in control.
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Jaid
post Sep 10 2006, 06:41 AM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
It doesn't say "controls everything the target does unless he has a BTL" and it especially doesn't say "controls everything the target does except that he can still do whatever he wants (including shoot you).

hmmm... wait, i might be thinking of control actions... one of them you have actually give them an order, which of course is an action... and therefore until you can actually give them the order to do something, they would act normally.

that being said, i would personally give people better chances to resist mental manipulations for being on certain drugs and whatnot... on account of someone who's mind is seriously screwed up is going to be harder to make it work in the way you want it...

not huge bonuses mind you... more along the lines of maybe a 2 dice bonus...
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James McMurray
post Sep 10 2006, 06:15 PM
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That's already factored into the drugs, as some of them give bonus willpower.
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Mistwalker
post Sep 10 2006, 06:43 PM
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Actually, I can't see Influence spell allowing a mage to tell a sammy to shoot himself in the head.

Influence makes the idea seems like your own. At the most, if a mage told a sammy to shoot himself in the head, I would have the sammy lose an IP, while he shakes his head, saying "What the **** was I thinking.... arg, damn mages"

I could see it have the sammy think his weapon is seriously jammed, and to change to his back-up if he has one, or withdraw to get another one.

Or, if the mage is sneaky, maybe implant the idea that the mage is an undercover operative, like they mentioned when the alarm went off. Sammy would concentrate on the others, allowing the mage to cast more spells.
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Slithery D
post Sep 10 2006, 06:52 PM
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Those are all suboptimal uses of Influence. Its ticking time bomb nature makes it much better for causing noncombat actions, like stealing something for you, leaving a door unlocked, or shutting down a security system. Or, my favorite, telling him to go to a restroom or other secluded spot where you and a buddy can restrain him, Mind Probe him, and then Alter Memory so he doesn't remember that you picked the password/sec system layout/whatever from his brain.

Combat spells are so passe.
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Mistwalker
post Sep 10 2006, 07:02 PM
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Oh, I agree with Influence being much better out of combat and helping combat.

I was mostly disagreeing with someone saying that they use Influence to have the opposition shoot themselves in the head.

Grin
have the guard surf some porn, and hit him with Orgasm while he is. Completely distracted, allowing you wo waltz in. (Assuming you get enough hits on Orgasm)

Or have low charisma guard attempt to have intercourse with the high charisma guard, and sneak by while the fireworks are going on.

Etc....
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James McMurray
post Sep 10 2006, 07:19 PM
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Nobody said to use Influence to have someone shoot themselves in the head.
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Mistwalker
post Sep 10 2006, 07:27 PM
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Sorry James.
You are right, that exact phrase was not used, but the intent was the same. I believe that you were the one that used the phrase "kill yourself", though to be fair, the spell being talked about at that time was "Mind Control", which I took to be Influence.
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