 Two questions |
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 Sep 9 2006, 08:29 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168  |
1. Are ammo prices listed in the book per clip, or per number of bullets?
2. If you buy a skill group, then want to increase an individual skill, do you buy from 0, from the skill group, or something else? eg: I have firearms 3. I want to increase pistols to 4. Do I pay karma/bp for pistols 3 -> 4, or 0->4? |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:35 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
1. Per ten bullets.
2. 3 to 4. |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:36 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
1. per 10 rounds, iirc
2. 3->4 |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:38 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
1) Per 10 shots. It's at the top of the chart - but don't feel bad, I missed it at first too. Grenades, etc are a la carte.
2) Two separate rules here. You can't break a group in chargen. So if you want to start with pistols at 4 and rifles and longarms at 3, you buy all of the skills separately (total of 4x4 + 3x4 + 3x4 = 40 BP). However after chargen, suppose you have firearms 3, you can break the group and raise just pistols by paying the karma cost to raise it from 3 to 4 (8 karma). |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:42 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Whiteland, IN Member No.: 9,169 |
I've heard this before but can't find it in the book. What page/section is that located? gunsnammo |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:46 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
SD: Ahhh. So the answer to #2 is "both" ;)
I looked all over for the 10 - the chargen used it, but that just seemed expensive. Guess not. The daily bullet run seems in order for my poor PC, then. |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:48 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Not really. You certainly DON'T have to buy Pistols all the way up from 0 if you have the firearms group. It's just that you can't say, buy the firearms group up to 4 and THEN buy pistols up to 5. If what ShadowDragon is saying is true. |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:49 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
2 nuyen a bullet is expensive? You must have a very stingy GM. |
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Sep 9 2006, 08:51 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Actually, nowhere. There are hints that you can't, and hints that you can. This was discussed before. A lot. So try searching the forum ;). |
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Sep 9 2006, 09:12 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
To be fair, ask your GM. Mine tends toward not being able to do it and so I tend toward the same thing. My reasons follow... 1) They give you rules for groups at char-gen and rules for individual skills at char-gen, not for both at once. 2) The rules for buying a skill after buying its group only deal with karma-costs, not BPs. 3) No template character does it. They use skill-groups but never buy extra points of any skill they have the group for. 4) I am sure one of the designers was here and told us you couldn't do it at char-gen... |
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Sep 9 2006, 09:16 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
What he said :D You're right that it's not explicitly written in the book (like so many other things) |
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Sep 9 2006, 10:50 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Well, that's for standard. However, I plan to be shooting 2x a round, with 3 init passes per round, using bursts. So that's 18 bullets per round, or 36 nuyen. And most of those will be Ex-Ex, not Regular. So that's 180 nuyen per round. So a fair amount of cash per round.... |
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Sep 9 2006, 10:59 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
2 nuyen per bullet is pretty much when a drink costs 5. As it seems to me, nuyen are pretty much the same as USD, and 2 bucks a bullet is a horrible price compared to RL.
9mm luger Rounds Per Case: 500 Case MSRP: $102.00 =$0.2 per round. |
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Sep 9 2006, 11:29 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Nuyen are more valuable than US $. The per capita income in the UCAS in 2062, as given in SoNA, was 28,000. The CIA factbook gives a US per capita income of $40,100 in 2004. I don't care how grim and gritty you think the future is in terms of income distribution, the idea that they're actually that much poorer is unrealistic.
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Sep 9 2006, 11:54 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Unless the cost of living has dropped considerably. Soy and very cheap housing. |
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Sep 10 2006, 01:51 AM
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#16
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The United States essentially gets tribute from all over the world. The UCAS does not, so you're darn right that they are a lot poorer. Income distribution be damned, countries like Columbia send the US goods essentially in exchange for the United States supporting their government militarily. The UCAS, OTOH, is hardly in a position to give thumbs up or thumbs down to regime change anywhere in Latin America, and does not get those goods.
Less goods incoming means that there's less to distribute. And that means that the average distribution is less. The average world distribution hasn't changed, but the American share of the pie is much smaller. That's what happens when empires fall. -Frank |
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Sep 10 2006, 03:20 AM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Which means that the Czech, Minnesota, Illinois, or Arkansas made ammo I buy at 13 to 20 cents per round is 15-10 times more expensive exactly how? |
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Sep 10 2006, 03:28 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
I don't recall the BBB hinting you can split skill groups up. There was one walkthrough example of a character being created I recall, specifically stated he bought a skill seperately because he wanted to start with it above 4 so the skill group wouldn't work for him.
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Sep 10 2006, 03:54 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Thats for bulk rounds. Go look up high performance ammunition (the kind I think proffesional shadowrunners would use) and you will see that they can easily go to thirty bucks a box of 20 rounds.... |
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Sep 10 2006, 04:20 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Not for regular ball ammunition, no.
Ammunition in the 6th World is expensive because a lot less of it is being made on account of the fact that 95% of firearms training is done with simsense. Or 6th World ammo is so expensive because no-one who'd ever been near an actual firearm had anything to do with the Shadowrun firearms list. |
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Sep 10 2006, 04:24 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Um, wow. Yes, Columbian businessment sit around and say: "You know, I could sell my product at home or in Europe for market price, but I feel so good about U.S. support for our government that I think I'll sell it for less in the U.S." Or maybe not. I thought after your first sentence I was going to be treated to the old balance of payments song and dance, which while horribly wrong in many of its particulars at least has the merits of being widespread and supported by some quasi-logic. But I'd never imagined that the horrible, far more than mildly retarded economics that have underlayed SR and the megacorps from the beginning had infected one of the brightest minds around here. I will buy that the UCAS is poorer due to the massive upheaval of the Ghost Dance war and later developments, megacorp extraterritoriality eroding the tax base (or megacorp revenue not counting in national statistics!), or post-Ghost Dance political instability driving away foreign investment to Japan, the only "obviously" safe place to park your money since the awakening. But the idea that present day private enterprises sell to us for less than they could get elsewhere out of the good of their hearts...no. Oh, and what's Japan's per capita income? Survey says...28,700 (SoA pg. 74). Empire just doesn't pay like it used to, I guess. |
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Sep 10 2006, 05:48 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Incidentally, the population of the UCAS is 172m, that of Japan is 141m. So the UCAS is still the world's largest economy in the 2063 time frame, and Japan's per capita lead is neglible. Japan has more megacorporate assets to call on, so it's probably more or less a wash in economic muscle. Of course, those Japanese numbers were probably knocked back by the 2061 disasters.
Hmm. A list of national economic rankings, per capita and total GNP, culled from SoA, SoE, and SoNA would be interesting. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow. Edit: What's the conversion rate between nuyen and euros for SoE economy information? Or at least a fair estimate? 1:1.2? 1:1? The latter makes Sweden (by far), Germany and France the richest per capita nations in the world, which seems wrong but possible. |
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Sep 10 2006, 06:33 AM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
What makes you think that? Just because none of the ammo types they list actually works the way the game designers think they work, and explosives don't go off when you connect an electric current to them, and you can't use your pistol to blow a hole big enough to walk through in a door, and, and, and . . . you think that they just made this up of of thin air? Me too. |
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Sep 10 2006, 06:45 AM
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#24
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Or maybe... they repeatedly sign contracts to ship goods and services to US corporations in exchange for substantially less than they are worth because they don't want to die. In ages past, this arrangement was called "tribute". You sent the powerful empire some gold and pretty women every year because if you didn't the empire would periodically send the brute squad into your capital and burn it down. Imperialism is out of fashion, so people don't call it "tribute" very much anymore, but the fact is the contracts we've signed in Latin America are awfully nice, and we only had to invade... Honduras in 1903 La Republica Dominica in 1903 Cuba in 1906 Nicaragua in 1907 Honduras in 1907 Panama in 1908 Nicagua in 1910 Honduras in 1911 Cuba in 1912 Panama in 1912 Honduras in 1912 Nicaragua in 1912 Mexico in 1914 Haiti in 1914 La Republia Dominica in 1916 Cuba in 1917 Panama in 1918 Honduras in 1919 Guatemala in 1920 Costa Rica in 1921 Panama in 1921 Honduras in 1924 Panama in 1925 Puerto Rico in 1950 Guatemala in 1954 Panama in 1958 Cuba in 1961 Panama in 1964 La Republica Dominica in 1965 Guatemala in 1966 Chile in 1973 El Salvador in 1981 Nicaragua in 1981 Honduras in 1982 Grenada in 1983 Bolivia in 1987 Panama in 1989 and Haiti in 1994 Boy, I'm glad that all those people in Latin America make the US such sweet deals voluntarily after we invaded them 38 times in the 20th century. Yet, somehow I'm still going to guess that after both of the US' attempts to overthrow Chavez failed in the 21st century, that a lot less countries are going to be renewing those contracts... --- That being said, no, Imperial Nippon doesn't seem to get anything from the East Asian Prosperity Sphere. But then the statistics in a lot of the older books (and some of the newer ones) are just whack. I mean, SoNA has the PCC conquer an area that is more populous than the entire PCC without having its population rise at all. I have no idea what the populations or GDP of any of those countries are "really". -Frank |
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Sep 10 2006, 06:55 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I'm pretty sure that Dole Co. shady banana deals from 1923 are not the prop holding up the US economy. Trade is a shockingly small part of the US economy by world standards, and very little of that trade is with Latin America. Still, I'll go spend my war dividend from our repeated economically motivated invasions of Haiti.
SoNA made the NAN states infinitely less crazy and absurd than they used to be. Finally we have barely inhabited wasteland whose minimum population are bulked up by Anglo reservations and converted pinkskin tribesman. They're still probably way too rich, though. I can handwave the Pueblo's high tech economy, but it's not obvious what the Sioux and Ute would ever do for a living. Fun fact: in SoA, India's official per capita income is...10 nuyen a head. This is probably the dumbest thing ever printed. I would have believed 1000, would have accepted half of that, and wouldn't have smirked too hard at a bit lower than that. But 10? The next poorest published numbers are Poland at 12,000 per head. |
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