 Montrealers..., Everyone okay? |
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 Sep 14 2006, 03:49 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025  |
There's a significant number of Dumpshockers from Montreal, I've noticed. Is everyone accounted for? My condolences if anyone was affected by what happened today.
(For those of you who don't know, a gunman opened fire in a Montreal college today. Police responded quickly, but there was at least one death and many people were injured. I was concerned because dumpshockers are often college age.) |
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Sep 14 2006, 03:51 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Aye, here's hoping we didn't lose anyone.
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Sep 14 2006, 04:06 AM
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#3
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I report no holes in my body. That was some messed up shit, though.
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Sep 14 2006, 04:14 AM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,987 Joined: 1-March 05 From: République Libre du Québec Member No.: 7,129 |
All good and in one piece. That was damn scary. I was having lunch at a friend's place, which is an appartement looking down on Dawson College, just across the street. I've never heard automatic weapons being fired, live, before. Scary thing.
I'm still pretty amazed how someone got a hold of a fully automatic AK 47 in Montreal. |
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Sep 14 2006, 05:24 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 16-August 03 Member No.: 5,501 |
my family out there is safe.
lets pray that everyone makes a full recovery :( |
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Sep 14 2006, 05:32 AM
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#6
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
When are politicians -- of any nationality -- going to learn that making it difficult to legally carrying a gun just means only the bad guys will have guns? One person with a concealed carry permit could've shut this guy down in an eyeblink. Tragedies like this don't happen because there are too many guns on the streets, they happen because there are too few. Thoughts/prayers/what-have-you go out to everyone hurt.
Any word on what this guy's blaming it on? I remember the last Montreal campus shooter was all against feminism or something, and couldn't get accepted to the college, right? |
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Sep 14 2006, 12:15 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Critias, is this the right time?
I haven't heard from my brother yet. Knowing him, it's more likely because he's run over to help. |
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Sep 14 2006, 12:37 PM
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#8
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
If the politicians can knee-jerk as a direct response to this sort of thing (which they did, in '89, from the exact same campus, using it as an excuse to launch a new wave of gun control laws), why can't law abiding, gun owning, citizens comment on it, as well? I'm not blaming the people that got hurt, I'm not pointing fingers at the victims, I'm not saying "they had it coming," the way some Canadians and Europeans did on 9/12/01. I'm not even talking, specifically, about Canadian politicians (we have some ridiculous gun control laws here in the states, too, and trust me I feel even more strongly about them). I'm just saying I think it's a damned shame every time something like this happens, people are forced to rely on the police to protect them. I get sick to my stomach when I imagine how helpless those people must have felt, with nothing more dangerous than a mechanical pencil or a calculator to defend themselves with, against someone willing to ignore gun laws in order to kill people. It literaly sickens me to think about law-abiding citizens losing their lives for being law abiding, and disarming themselves to set foot on a college campus (or into a church, or a gov't building, or anyplace that serves alcohol, or a million other businesses). It nauseates me to think about people being denied the basic right to defend themselves. The kids at Columbine (to use a similar, and more unpleasant, example) broke 11 seperate, previously existing, firearm laws just when they set foot onto that high school campus. Nevermind when they started shooting people -- they broke 11 laws, just having those guns, carrying them the way they were, going to a public school with them, etc. They knew they were breaking laws doing so, and they didn't not do it because of it. It's what criminals do, pretty much by definition; ignore or bypass laws. So what makes politicians think more laws are the answer? What makes politicians warm and fuzzy inside, disarming the very people that voted them into office? What lets them sleep at night, when faced with the fact tragedies like this might not happen, might happen less frequently, or at the very least might be stopped much quicker, if they didn't go out of their way to handicap law abiding, decent human beings? Psychos and sociopaths and thugs and gangbangers don't give a fuck about gun laws. Decent human beings do. Responsible human beings. Human beings that respect authority, care what other people think about them, and are well-adjusted enough to follow society's rules. The people you want carrying guns can't, because politicians and soccer moms don't want them to. I've read that there's one gun in Canada for every three Canadians. I'm not sure how accurate it is, or (of course) how many of them are big-ass hunting rifles or shotguns, etc. The gist of the statement, however, is that it is not a nation of people frightened of firearms. It's not a nation of people who don't know how they work. It's not a nation of people living in the 12th century. It's a nation of people, however, who can't carry those guns anywhere to protect themselves. This shooter, according to CNN, was laid low by the police, using new (post-Columbine) "active shooter" techniques. Where the police used to settle in a perimter and wait for SWAT to show up, they now understand that bad men stop shooting nice people if you fucking kill them. I commend the bravery of those officers, and were I not a whole bunch of miles away, I'd try to buy each of them a beer. However, in the time it took those policemen to arrive, this guy put one college girl in the ground, and 7-8 more in critical condition and 10-12 more in the hospital (I've heard varying numbers). Imagine if those people had been able to actively defend themselves! Imagine if that "one gun for every three Canadians" was a number describing concealed carry permits. That would be between 6 and 8 law-abiding citizens, out of those actual shot by this lunatic alone, that could've filled that fucker with holes before he'd preforated victim number 2. Think about that. Think about a society -- and not just Canada, here, but any society -- full of people not just willing to run and try to help people (like your own brother, Dog), but able to help people. Imagine that one in three. Imagine what the next psycho asshole who decided to shoot up a college campus would be up against, in seconds, not minutes. Imagine fifteen or sixteen of yesterday's twenty victims being shaken up, but unharmed. Imagine a government that let you protect each other like that, instead of a government that does everything it can to keep you reliant on it for protection (the way those cops used to be reliant on SWAT to come stop the shooter). My prayers are with those affected by this tragedy. My thoughts are with them, my heart goes out to the families of those injured, unaccounted for as-of-yet, and (of course) murdered. But at the same time, I can't just be sad, I'm pissed off, too. Not only at the shitheel crazy-ass that decided to kill a bunch of people, but at the politicians -- none of whom were on that campus that day, of course -- who let it happen by not allowing people to defend themselves. I hope your brother wasn't hurt, I hope the people that were hurt make it through this (I've heard one, so far, succumbed to their injuries at a nearby hospital), and I hope such a thing never gets to happen again, anywhere. There are two groups of people that are the most worried about being shot by civilians (non-LEO, non-military). Criminals and politicians. Politicians, sadly, have the power to act on their fears. |
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Sep 14 2006, 12:51 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
Well said Critias, and my thoughts (and prayers) echo your own.
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Sep 14 2006, 12:53 PM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,987 Joined: 1-March 05 From: République Libre du Québec Member No.: 7,129 |
Now I want to see you justify why your country has the highest gun related crime rate in the world (including gun related homicide). And do you know where about 99% of illegal guns in Canada come from? The States.
We don't need looser gun control laws. You need less ridiculous ones. I mean... in some states, you can get freaking assault rifles no questions ask. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH AN ASSAULT RIFLE! Shoot freaking deers?! The only thing that makes me sicker than people go around shooting other people for the heck of it are people who actually advocate looser gun control laws. Now that's fucked up. |
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Sep 14 2006, 01:00 PM
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#11
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
No you can't. You can't buy an "assault rifle" anywhere, in any state, without special (very expensive, very complicated, very paper-trail-heavy) certification. Check your facts. It's not like you can stroll into a Wal Mart and walk out with an FN-FAL or something, without background checks, etc. Trust me.
Yes. That makes perfect sense. I'm fucked up because I wish those twenty college kids had been able to defend themselves. I'm crazy because I wish shit like this didn't happen, and because laws very obviously aren't going to stop it. I'm nuts because I wish people were able to protect themselves from the psychopaths, sociopaths, rapists, muggers, and general worthless criminals of the world (the people who casually ignore gun control laws, like they ignore the laws against murdering, raping, and stealing). I'm disgusting to you, because I wish this shit couldn't happen to decent human beings. You're sickened by me, because I don't like the idea of people being dependent on their government to protect them, but, rather, I like the idea of them being capable of protecting themselves. I'm wrong, because I don't like laws that, quite simply, make good people die for no reason. The notion of law abiding citizens being able to protect themselves makes you "sicker" than the crazy bastard that decided to go on a shooting spree. You, sir, make lots of sense. |
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Sep 14 2006, 01:03 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
What makes me sick is when a tragedy is turned into a political soapbox in less than 24 hours...
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Sep 14 2006, 01:06 PM
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#13
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
If the tragedy hadn't happened as a direct result of the laws that let it happen, the idea wouldn't have jumped into my head so very, very, quickly. That said, I apologize for the disruption, and will bow out of the thread if that's what you want. I'll only ask that you go back and reread what I wrote, understanding that it's coming only from a position of greif over the harm that's been caused, and righteous indignation that such attacks continue to be possible. I've lost friends to insane shooters -- google search "Clay Shrout" some time -- and it makes me sick to my stomach whenever I hear about it happening to anyone else. |
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Sep 14 2006, 01:11 PM
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#14
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Critias,
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Sep 14 2006, 01:12 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
I happen to live in a country where firearms are generally forbidden for normal citizens. I can say that there hasn't been a single situation in the last 25 years where a gun would have made me feel safer. I have never been threatened with a gun nor been shot at. Life in the US isn't any safer than here. In fact the probability of becoming victim of a violent crime is much higher in the US. The city I am living in has about a million inhabitants and has its share of criminals. So I don't see any advantage in possessing guns.
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Sep 14 2006, 02:03 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Is it? I don't know what the statistics are like for where you live, but this gets trotted out a lot when comparing European countries to the US and in plenty of cases, it's completely untrue. For example, you're actually a lot less likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the US than in the UK. If you disregard things like race and socio-economic status, the theoretical average person is more likely to get murdered in the US (in particular, murdered with a gun)... though those averages aren't even close to accurate for the majority of middle-class Americans. On the other hand, the rate of other violent crime - assault, rape, armed robbery, etc. - is lower. (and the rate of non-violent property crime is lower still) |
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Sep 14 2006, 02:06 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I'm actually acquainited with at least a couple of Canadians that do. (though they're both ex-servicemen, and have a tendency to be on the conservative side, by Canadian standards anyway) |
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Sep 14 2006, 02:15 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390 |
I'm fine and I don't know anyone who was hurt or even remotly involved in this shooting, hopefully.
This is kind of sad that some peoples still do these things. Firearms should be banned and not possible to obtain. |
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Sep 14 2006, 02:26 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
This thread's gonna get looocked, this thread's gonna get looocked...
Does this actually mean less violent crime is reported and noted by the police in US, and which study came to this conclusion? I may have seen such a report earlier, but I couldn't confirm on a quick glance at NationMaster. According to the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, the US has very slightly more assaults, twice as many rapes and three times as many murders per capita, but slightly less robberies and much less burglaries -- though again that's all the crime that's reported, not all that has actually happened. Germany ranks lower than either country in every category, with 1/5th the amount of assaults and half the robberies per capita. |
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Sep 14 2006, 03:23 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Critias, et. al. a little decorum, please. I agree with you bro, but your timing needs work. To our Canadian brethern, hope you are all ok and the injured all make a full recovery. God Save Canada, and God Save the USA.
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Sep 14 2006, 04:25 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088 |
As a Canadian I know exactly what our dear government's response will be...
blah blah blah Gun Registry for law abiding citizens! blah blah blah Longer prison sentences! ...all of which will make absolutely no damn difference at all. |
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Sep 14 2006, 04:48 PM
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#22
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Meh. May as well. I was shocked when I heard this news. It's especially disturbing to me - I'm a college student, and the thought of some fuck walking onto my own campus with Kalashnikov scares the shit out of me. Primarily because I woulden't have any means of defending myself but running and hiding. Hey. I'm some ridiculous thing above 350 pounds, and I can't run worth a damn. Runing and hiding sounds like a good idea... Not. I might manage to hide somewhere because I've had years of experiance with the nooks and crannies of my school, but that depends on where the gunman is and where I am when the shots start ringing out. There is no way I'm going to be able to evade this guy if he's anywhere near where I am. But if I were allowed to carry a pistol - and not just any cutsey small pistol, but something with real potential, like something reliable in .45 ACP, I might be able to do something. Like fight back. Yes, it might get me killed. But to be frank? I'd be killed if I were unarmed, too. I'd rather not die at all, but if my number's up, I want to go out defending myself and others than go out cowering and squealing like a piggie. And guess what - if I get him, even after I've already been gotten, or if I get him so good that he can't kill anyone else - then it was worth it. If all I do is buy time for more athletic students to run, or time for more gun-carrying students and teachers to arrive armed and ready to finish what I started, then it was worth it. I'm sorry to make things into a soapbox, and believe me, I'm very sorry about the ones who got hurt, and it makes me shake that one of them died. But you know what? Maybe none of them would have died if so much as one of the students in that cafeteria had had a Colt .45, drawn, and fired. Maybe a lot less of them would have been injured.
Guess what? Firearms are banned in Canada. You think it's legal to own an AK-47? Even in the 'states? It's NOT. And that predictably means that when good people cannot own an AK-47, the only people who will have AK-47s are criminals. |
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Sep 14 2006, 05:03 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
This has to be Dumpshock's most fucked up thread in a long time. :S
Critias, did you have to start a political flamefest and hijack the thread? |
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Sep 14 2006, 05:05 PM
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#24
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
The short and slightly dated version is "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
Thoughts go out to our Canadian friends. |
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Sep 14 2006, 05:17 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390 |
That would be the response from the medias.... You're right, Gun Registry and longer prison sentences have nothing to do with this... Should the gun be registered or not, that won't have made any difference! I'm much more in favor of a special governement agency who hunts gun dealers all across the country... They will have a lot of work to do in Kanawahke (which is an amerindian reserve) |
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