 Montrealers..., Everyone okay? |
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 Sep 15 2006, 05:33 PM
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#126
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada Member No.: 7,934  |
Well, most people I know have taken a year or two of karate, and the vast majority of them have gotten to dick around with tonfas and those wooden practice sword deelies. I only brought it up because I know a lot of middle-class urban youth got thier parents to get them in to martial arts or boxing for a year or two, and figured it was a good referance point.
I know a fair share of them too. Mostly they go to dojos with 'dragon' in the name, or have instructors named Tommy. Any kind of Southern Japanese or Okinawan style should teach you what you need to know in order to not wake up without your wallet and boots.
Police officers usualy have a choice whether or not to close in. I've never been in a fight that hasn't started with the two of use standing within a meter or two of the other. I wouldn't pull a gun at those ranges anyways.
I find it hard to believe you never went to a grade school physical education class. It's really not at all hard to hit someone with a blugeoning tool, you swing, and even if you miss your target, you're bound to still hit something fleshy.
Christ man, it is possible to add some levity without 'devolving' a conversation. You would think that we're talking about life and death here. EDIT: In response to Kagetenshi, yea, I have. Once in the thraot, a couple times to the back of the neck of a doubled over person, and quite a few times the other person 'dodged' and got hit in the jaw or collar bone instead. Most of it was during full contact point sparring, but that isn't to say I couldn't hit someone hard enough to seriously hurt them had I not been pulling punches and using a padded stick. |
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Sep 15 2006, 05:47 PM
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#127
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Well then, I bow to your superior skills. For us mere mortals, there are three body parts that the average human is quite good at protecting, even if totally untrained:
1) Eyes 2) Genitals 3) Throat/front of neck (Back of the neck is another matter) These are difficult targets for most people. Anything that relies on hitting them had best involve hitting something else pretty hard first, because that's what it's going to take to break down the natural defenses. ~J |
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Sep 15 2006, 05:49 PM
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#128
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088 |
I would think that for self-defense purposes merely pointing a gun at an assailant would make them back off pretty quick. Pointing a baseball bat (which won't fit in a pocket btw) will probably make them laugh.
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Sep 15 2006, 05:58 PM
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#129
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Dude - you seriously need to broaden your social circle. :D |
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Sep 15 2006, 06:03 PM
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#130
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada Member No.: 7,934 |
Nah, the front of the neck is a rather poor target, but the sides are generally much easier to hit. The only time I ever seriously got a guy in the throat was when I was sparring with a friend and a length of PVC pipe in each of our hands. He blocked wrong and 'parried' the pipe right in to his neck. I mostly aim for the side of the neck/collar bone/ jaw area because most it hurts like a bitch getting hit there (and in a real fight, could very well break something), and if an unarmed person blocks, they still get a nice welt on thier forearm. My few fighting experiances generally invlove liquor on the part of both parties so I don't fully remember them, but I usualy got them worse than they got me. And yes, hitting somewhere else first is always a good idea. |
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Sep 15 2006, 06:03 PM
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#131
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
When raised, the point is that a criminal that is going to commit a crime using a weapon (in other words, has made that choice already, in light of the fact that doing so is illegal), has already taken into account and ignored the law regarding what he is about to do. Conclusion: in cases where a gun is used to commit a crime, gun laws have done nothing to prevent it; ergo criminals don't care about gun laws. Just as in the case with any law, only law-abiding citizens are following them. As to whether they serve as a preventative measure, that's a completely different discussion.
Show me where or when anyone has ever said that the purpose of a gun was to perform a non-lethal disarm. Not the point, and when using a gun, you're damn well aware of this fact.
I'm not sure you quoted the bit you intended to be responding to. As a response to the quote this currently follows, it doesn't really make much sense.
We aren't?
Really? Because if I intended to cause physical harm to someone, and was brandishing a baseball bat, and they started laughing, it would just give me a better chance to hit them in such a way that it would count. Point? Take any weapon seriously, especially when you're the one being threatened with it. |
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Sep 15 2006, 06:22 PM
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#132
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088 |
Oh yeah, cause a potentially drugged up psycho looking at his "prey" is going to take you with a baseball bat seriously.
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Sep 15 2006, 06:26 PM
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#133
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada Member No.: 7,934 |
A baseball bat can really hurt a guy. There's a reason that pick handles continued to be considered effective melee weapons even in to the 20th century, and that's because you can beat a guy to a pulp with one of those with pretty much no training.
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Sep 15 2006, 06:29 PM
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#134
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
What he said. Since my own experience is that 99% of the people I know don't know anything about MA or "self-defense" arts.
Good. Good for you. You're Billy Badass. Most people, apparently those who go to said schools, aren't as badass as you are at kicking ass.
I'm not talking about fights.
It doesn't mean I was any good. I sucked. See, that's why I stuck to stuff where I didn't catch, like tailback or defensive lineman. Neither of which mean shit against a man with a knife and an intent to murder me.
You must be new here.
We are. |
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Sep 15 2006, 06:41 PM
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#135
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Did you have a point? If you'll follow the context of the conversation rather than simply looking for little chances to poke in and make a sarcastic comment, you might have better luck. |
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Sep 15 2006, 07:10 PM
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#136
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
This is starting to head downhill, guys.
Assume for a moment that we've got a limited amount of time allocated to self-defense preparation in our lives. This amount of time varies for various people. The majority of folks don't put in much thought to this at all... they've got more important things to think about, or they've got a firm belief in the "foot stomp, rib jab, key rake, and run screaming" approach that's taught at the two-hours-every-two-years self-defense course offered to their office. In the middle, you've got guys like me... they get some training in the defense of their choice when they can (be it martial arts, handgunnery, or any mix of elements they come up with), and try and keep in practice between training sessions with sparring, range trips, and the like. On the end of the spectrum, you've got guys who train constantly. Often, their skills have a professional application, because it's hard to justify that amount of time and effort otherwise. Others do it as a hobby, pursuing a martial art or a "practical" shooting sport because they enjoy it. If someone's going to put in a limited amount of time and end up somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, I would hope that they'd train to be as effective as they thought possible. For people who don't have ethical or personal outlooks that would forbid them from possibly being aggressive towards someone (or possibly killing them), there's a lot to be said for building a defensive system that includes a combination of martial arts, less-lethal weapons (sprays, tasers, batons, and the like), blades, and firearms. With sufficient exposure, the person can make a good decision about what works for them (and what doesn't), what they're comfortable doing to someone, what they're willing to carry around all day, and what they should focus on when they practice and train. They'll have gotten the information they need to start making educated decisions about where they want to prioritize their limited time budget for self-defense. I'm about to make some observations. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, this is just what I'm noting. For Nidhogg, it seems his personal experience and the restrictions placed on him by the life he currently lives have led him to feel that sprays, impact weapons, and martial arts are the level of protection that suit his needs. For Kagetenshi, it seems that his personal beliefs and his exposure to martial arts have led him to feel that he is unwilling to do any more harm in any less controlled of a fashion than he can with his hands in order to protect himself, and that the level of protection he has is sufficient for daily life. For Shadowdragon, it seems that her personal experiences and awareness of her limitations have led her to feel that there are situations where a firearm is the most likely means of surviving. For myself, my approach to any unknown situation is to want to have as many options available to myself as I can, so that I've got increased odds of having what I felt to be my best option work out in my favor. There's a number of other people involved in this discussion. I'm not trying to leave them out, I'm just showing a few samples to make a point: there's a wide spread of opinions here. I'm of the opinion that your average adult should be believed to be a responsible individual. Frankly, I don't think society would work if the average adult was irresponsible. We've got various ways of showing that someone is irresponsible... mental illness, criminal history, and the like are used all over the place as beaurocratic flags that indicate "this person doesn't have their shit together. Do not trust them." We assert that the average adult is responsible enough to drive a car safely, to raise a child properly, to play MMORPGs without losing themselves to them, and to have alcohol be available to them without their loosened inhibitions causing problems. Frankly, we give people all sorts of opportunities to fuck up both themselves and others because we assert that there's a point at which people can be trusted to make their own decisions rather than having the government make those decisions for them. If someone fucks up badly enough, there are corrective measures. Child abuse is a crime. So is reckless driving. Drunks who cause enough problems to get the police involved usually end up charged with something. Most of the people I know who dug too far into MMORPGs ended up living with their parents again, a special hell reserved for the worst of irresponsible adults ;) Self-defense shouldn't be any different. I think that all responsible adults should be able to look at the various means of defending themselves, consider how much time they're willing to put into it, how many people they might have to defend, their likelihood of needing to defend themselves, and how much damage they're willing to do to somebody in order to protect themselves, and then make their own decision without having a law sitting out there that says "By the way... with regards to these particular choices, we're going to treat you like children. Let the adults (cops) take care of you." The vast majority of people in America (land of the highest first-world murder rate) have the option of defending themselves however they choose. Most of them fit into that first category I talked about... the ones who don't feel the need, or think that foot-stomping or screaming is sufficient for them. I may not agree with their analysis, but I believe that adults should be allowed to make those kinds of decisions themselves. I don't call them "sheeple" or any of the various derogatory terms that float around the RKBA community because I think it'd be hypocritical: I have the right to choose to carry a firearm because it's assumed I can make good choices, I should assume that they're making the choice that's good for them when they choose not to. Whether guns, pepper spray, or jujitsu are the most effective or least dangerous means of self defense is besides the point... those are all subjective, and what works out best for one person may not be what works out best for another. What it really comes down to is whether or not you believe adults can be trusted to make important decisions. |
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Sep 15 2006, 08:28 PM
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#137
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I don't carry a gun (open, which is perfectly legal here, or concealed) because I rely on the statistical probability that I will need one. That said, I know how to use one and if (more like, "when") the time comes I will keep one with me by my bed, in my car, or on my person.
Crit and I know each other well enough that I know he won't take it personally when I say that I actively distrust law enforcement, and I certainly don't expect them to be there in an emergency unless I'm living in a well-patrolled area. He knows about his area PDs. I know about mine. The numbers for all of them suck, especially considering how much of our respective states are rural and where the nearest Level One trauma center may be in another state--accessible only by helicopter. That's one of the reasons why I have always thought that the best home defense weapon is a shotgun for the intimidation factor of racked slide makes in a house, and the fact that buckshot is less likely to overpenetrate if you miss while holed up in a ready position. Plus, if you run out of ammo then you can try to bludgeon the shit out of them. |
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Sep 15 2006, 10:23 PM
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#138
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
You realize there is a staggering amount of folks out there that physically are in no condition to be engaging in any kind of melee combat, don't you? Whether it be small physical stature, age, or just plain being out of shape, these folks would stand almost no chance of effectively using a baton or club to defend against an assailant, especially given that an armed mugger is far more likely to be in better physical condition than said victim. Hell, I'm in merely marginal condition myself. I'm about 30 pounds over the recommended weight for my size and age, have trouble running more than a few blocks, and have complete shit for gross motor coordination (Like hitting things with a bat.) At least 50% of my friends and co-workers are sadly in not much different condition. (Yes, the world is getting fatter) I can, however, consistantly hit targets with a handgun fairly well. The only self-defense options for folks in this situation is one that is small enough to carry regularly and does not require a large physical exertion or extreme skill to employ. Preferably one that allows the defense to be used at a distance. Handguns fill that role nicely. Now, I'd prefer the licensing process be MORE stringent, requiring longer training and tighter qualification testing, but I'd also like the opportunity to apply for such licenses be increased. -karma |
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Sep 16 2006, 01:10 AM
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#139
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I'm not exactly averse to open carry myself. Of course, here it's perfectly legal (even when concealed carry wasn't), so... Go figure.
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Sep 16 2006, 09:52 AM
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#140
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
1: Restraining orders don't mean jack shit to someone who dosen't care about the law. If you intend to murder someone, what, is their restraining order gonna stop you? 2: He has, until the man pays back the 20 bucks he owes. 3: Yeah, see, despite how much we Americans talk a bad-ass morally self-rightious highground, we generally try not to be douches as a rule of thumb. I called the police because I was afraid he was going to try to get in here with a knife looking for money, and I coulden't find my uncle. Once I did, crisis was averted, there was no need for the cops. I called them out of very immideate fear for my potential well-being, not to get them to compell him to never come back. While having the police compell him to never come back does appeal to me, my uncle's the owner of this house and I respect his decisions. Oh, and this wasen't 'when I was a child', it was two weeks ago.
Correct, up until the part where you called me a woman. What made you assume that, eh? Because I'm not athletically inclined enough to say I'm such a martial-arts badass? Or that I don't feel I could accurately crunch someone with a baseball bat? Oh well. Re: Baseball bats and martial arts. Reach is not the god of melee combat, the god of melee combat is the nature of the weapon you're using versus the other guy's protection, your skill with your weapon versus his skill at protecting himself, and how crampt the quarters are. Swinging a baseball bat MIGHT work - outside. Indoors, you're more likely to hit a wall. Likewise, the Martial Arts only work if you outclass your assailiant by a very significant margin. Assuming equal levels of training, a 120 lb, 5'2" martial artist always loses to the 250 lb, 6'1" martial artist. But a 120 lb, 5'2" with a firearm versus a 250 lb, 6'1" martial artist? I'd bet on the one with the gun. And me? Something above 350 lbs, 5'11", and all of it fat? With a very low pain threshold and psychological blocks against hitting another person with my hands or an object? Yeah.... If someone attacks me, my only hope of survival is pretty much limited to: A) Being in my car and being able to speed away when they make their intent to harm me/rob me known B) Having a firearm ready, and having the training and discipline to use it. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:29 AM
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#141
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
My only point, Kage, was that perhaps this point needs taken to a thread separate from one dedicated to Concern for our Friends up North. The many following pages that have ignored that well intentioned sentiment seem to have fullfilled my fears. You find few people as passionate about Gun Rights as myself, but I find many of these "angles on a pinhead" debates tiring, especially when they are entangled with the emotions of a real tragedy. Polite consideration for your friends and neighbors is as important to the health of a society as the vigilance of its citizens. |
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Sep 17 2006, 12:50 PM
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#142
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
There is a sly and convincing argument hidden in this joke. |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:28 PM
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#143
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
maybe so. but intended, it was not :smokin: |
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Sep 18 2006, 06:18 PM
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#144
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I've mistakenly thought you were female for months. It has nothing to do with this thread. |
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Sep 18 2006, 08:46 PM
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#145
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Um, me too. I also used "her." Sorry. I think it's the name. |
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Sep 18 2006, 08:50 PM
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#146
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
<Bad joke removed>
~J |
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