 Are Flash-Paks as strong as I think they are. |
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 Sep 14 2006, 07:44 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,341  |
Flash-Paks are legal "grenades" that give a minus 4 to all the attack rolls of anyone who is looking at them. They are also fairly cheap and can be recharged.
Giving a minus 4 to attack rolls to anyone looking in your direction seems pretty strong to me. In many circumstances, this will be better than thermal smoke and you don't stand a chance of hurting your own party (unless they are facing the front of you for some reason). The real interesting thing to do is to use a lot of them however. Grenades can be detonated via wireless command and it seems like you can make a whole string of them go off at once. So a creative runner could pick up a riot shield or something, attach ten or so Flash-Paks to its surface, and then set them off with a free action that would give an attack penalty of 40 dice to anyone who is facing the front of the shield, which seems ridiculous. Am I missing something which prevents this? |
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Sep 14 2006, 07:53 AM
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#2
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
What makes you think the effect would be cumulative?
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Sep 14 2006, 08:05 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 21-May 06 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 8,581 |
Here, do a quick test. Go into a semi-dark room with a lamp. Take the lamp's shade off so the bulb is exposed. Sit there for 10 minutes & let your eyes adjust. Turn the lamp on briefly, and turn it off. Notice your vision difference. Now do it again 15 seconds later. See if your vision's worse than the first time.
Flash-pak's shouldn't stack, if there's not a rule explicitly saying they don't. |
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Sep 14 2006, 08:14 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
No. They shouldn't stack except in extreme circumstances. And even then, the additional negative modifier should be minor.
However. Flashpacks on a riot shield is a pretty cool idea. :) |
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Sep 14 2006, 10:10 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 21-May 06 From: San Diego, CA Member No.: 8,581 |
If ANYTHING, I'd say they should wear off slowly (1 die penalty removed every couple combat turns), and tossing another one would renew the effects & re-blind the person, going back to the base penalty. I'm not looking at the rules as I type this though, so if that's the case, then cool! :P
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Sep 14 2006, 02:12 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Of course, Flare Compensators remove the benefit completely. And in SR4, there's really no excuse for not having flare compensators in either your cybereyes, your glasses, you mage-sight goggles, or your contacts.
Edit: No, they don't remove it. Odd. They just reduce it to -2. |
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Sep 14 2006, 02:35 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Question: Would multiple flare compensation stack? If you have both glasses with flare comp and cybereyes would it stack?
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Sep 14 2006, 03:18 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Nope.
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Sep 14 2006, 04:16 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Charleston, SC Member No.: 8,911 |
Well, no the modifiers aren't cumulative...but more importantly, Flare compensation on eyeware stops this. Eyeware is cheap, and i've yet to have a player who didn't have flare compensation by some method. Thermal smoke is far superior in my opinion, as it has nearly the same affect, covers a large radius, and you don't have to be nearly as accurate. |
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Sep 14 2006, 06:46 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Now combining Thermal Smoke and Flashpacks is a surefire winner.
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Sep 14 2006, 07:09 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
And the makings of a great party |
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Sep 14 2006, 07:15 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
No arguments there. You bringing the Elf stripper-ninjas, or the beer? |
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Sep 14 2006, 08:28 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I've got a plan along those lines, but it involves a MobMaster. Once we're done with it, do you guys want what's left?
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Sep 14 2006, 09:02 PM
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#14
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I know heeheeheeheehee... :D |
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Sep 14 2006, 09:03 PM
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#15
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...with or without the water cannon? :D |
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Sep 14 2006, 09:10 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Woo! Wet T-Shirt Contest! :rotfl: :noflame: |
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Sep 14 2006, 09:31 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,341 |
Thanks for the response. I was actually thinking of them as being more like a wounding penalty than a visibility modifier.
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Sep 14 2006, 10:19 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
Doesn't the thermal smoke inhibit the flashbang effect -- like fog and headlights? |
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Sep 14 2006, 11:40 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
potentially your GM could rule that way, especially if the smoke is between the flashpack and the person. which is why you do one of two things: 1) activate flashpack, then thermal smoke grenade 2) activate thermal smoke grenade, then activate flashpack while it's somewhere in between the smoke and the target. |
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Sep 14 2006, 11:58 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I dunno, I haven't taken a thermal lance to it yet :P |
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Sep 15 2006, 04:55 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Possibly. I'd actually let them stack (obviously, as I suggested it), assuming that the targets are either _in_ the smoke with the flashpack, or on the same side of the smoke as the flashpack (with the object they are trying to see/shoot in the smoke). The smoke will be lit up by the flashpack in its fun little seisure-inducing way: in the first case from within, and in the second case as a sort of screen. Either way, the two combine effects in such a way as to make it a pain in the butt. |
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Sep 15 2006, 11:00 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
I was wondering if a runner could use smoke as an ad hoc defense against flashpaks. "What's that she's got on her riot shield? Uh oh!..." Not to change the subject, this is only slightly off tangent: Do flashpacks affect astral perception? Since sunglasses don't have astral projection, is a projecting mage especially vulnerable to flash bangs? Also, smoke -- thermal or otherwise -- blocks line of sight. Does smoke affect projecting mages? I can see it both ways: Not only doesn't the projecting mage have flare compensation, she also left her eyes back with her meat body. Obviously, smoke doesn't get in her eyes. Is her "third eye" affected by the flash? |
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Sep 15 2006, 11:21 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
light in the physical world and "light" in the astral are unrelated (except to the extent that darkness tends to evoke a certain reaction in human beings, and therefore dark areas will probably have a slightly higher tendency to have negative emotions associated with them, that is)
therefore, the flash component of the flashbang would not effect the mage who is astrally projecting or perceiving IMO. that being said, it is not just a flash grenade, it is a flashbang, and the bang component would have full effect imo. as far as smoke is concerned, objects that are opaque on the physical plane are generally opaque on the astral. as far as using smoke grenades to defend against flashbangs... i'm not quite sure how that would work. first off, there's still the bang component. secondly, setting a smoke bomb off on yourself to protect yourself from being blinded seems counterproductive. i suppose you could use the smoke grenade on your target and move so that he can't hit you accurately, but flashbangs don't exactly require precision targetting. [edit] GAH! this is why you quote everything lol... go and change your post so now i look like i'm making up a question about flashbangs, why don't you ;) :P [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Sep 15 2006, 11:35 PM |
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Sep 15 2006, 11:28 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
My bad! I just realized that Flash-Bang and Flash-Pak are two different weapons. I have been using the two terms interchangably. :(
This thread is about Flash-Paks, and that is what I am talking about. |
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Sep 16 2006, 05:06 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
It could be argued that a flash pack attached to a shield that is active could if anything give a bonus if the smoke in between was thick enough.
"Aim for the light!" ;) |
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