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 religion in gaming, oh no - oh god - what have i done? |
 Sep 17 2006, 04:55 AM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316  |
Testament RPG
I dont think its particularly aimed at chrisitans. It specifically states you can be a sorcerer working for the pharaoh and etc. Though it is set in biblical times. Though if you look at the examples of the "other" people they do seem to be the archetypical bad guyd, Idol Makers, Magus, Sorcerers and all, the only one that looks like a good guy is the Prophet of God. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:04 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
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Sep 17 2006, 11:32 AM
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#28
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Well, that's true and cool and all, but only in settings where it's appropriate. In most D&D games, "good" really does mean "good" -- in fact, what's more, it means "Good" with a capital, "I'm a force of nature in the cosmos," sort of G. Your average Neutral Good faith, for instance, really does fit all those positive stereotypes, probably isn't hypocritical, really does do good for the community, etc, etc. I can see your "dystopian" working for Lawful faiths, sure (though, even then, primarily LN ones). But your average Neutral or Chaotic one? Way less likely to be "as bad as the 'evil' ones." In fact, if they are, I'd wager it's nothing but your own anti-religous slant slipping through -- because, by source material, they're not supposed to be. |
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Sep 17 2006, 11:35 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 5-March 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,125 |
If you mean Wiccan (neo-pagan witchcraft) then I suppose CJ Carrella's WitchCraft might fit the bill and is a free download from Drive Thru RPG, to boot. Personally, I have found that the World of Darkness games (esp. Werewolf and Changeling) integrate a lot of the Earth religions' ideas. They might not have religion at their core but the themes are there... |
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Sep 17 2006, 11:50 AM
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#30
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
The game's not specifically about Voodoo, but I know the authors did a bunch of research into developing a solid system for Voodoo as a big part of the setting for their pirate game Skull & Bones.
Bull |
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Sep 17 2006, 12:08 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
We're taking a break from SR at the moment and playing Cthulu. Hard to keep religion out of that one!
To the original question: sure I love exploring (lots of different) real world religious themes and history in rpgs. And in films, and in books. And despite being an athiest (now) I quite enjoy playing characters who are preachers (I've had more than one of those and have grown very attached to them) and have tried to play them respectfully. That is an issue though. If you try to explore these themes in art (and games) then you risk offending religious sensibilities. How do you, craigpierce, feel about the Da Vinci Code? (The subject matter- let's leave the writing style etc out of it). Did you enjoy seeing a discussion of religious themes and an acknowledgement that Jesus really existed, or were you offended by the disagreements with official church canon? I've been wondering, actually, about the portrayal of Islam in Shadowrun. Given the way things are going, how long will it be before some Imam calls for a fatwa on Shadowrun because its treatment of Islam is in some way seen as offensive and misrepresentative of the 'true word'. |
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Sep 17 2006, 02:37 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
i think this is an excellent point - in a game like DnD the big cities should really have some honestly 'Good' churches. but i think that including villages in your world that have only 1 church who claims to be 'Good' to draw in the locals, but who are really worshipping some god other than the one they claim to be for power and gold would be an interesting and more realistic plot line. or who don't really worship anything, but use the church as a means to cover-up something they're doing that they don't want the locals to know about; like the head priests having a long tradition of sexually exploiting minors because they are seen as perfectly holy to the community and no one will believe that they really are doing it or are too afraid of going against them. in that case, this church claims to be something like neutral Good but is really Neutral Evil and on sundays for an hour they read from the book of a Neutral Good god but the rest of the time they have a ritual circle downstairs where they worship some Neutral Evil god. |
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Sep 17 2006, 02:54 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
oops - yes i did mean Wiccan (that's my bad spelling ability showing through). wiccan 1.5 CJ Carrella's WitchCraft Arcane Classes: Wicca i'm sure that there are probably more witchcraft-based RPGs, but all i found with my quick search, beyond Firewall's suggestion, was the class book i listed above. and, of course, almost every major RPG incorporates a large amount of magical material - so i'm sure that you can take your favorite system and make it wiccan based - even if you have to buy the class book above to do so. |
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Sep 17 2006, 03:27 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
i would say that the risk is worth it. it's like Critias said, "Religions are supposed to draw people together" - and what better way to bring people together than through a RPG? the most important thing for the makers of a religion-based game to keep in mind is their target audience. there are so many flavors of each religion that you need to understand that when you're making a christian-based game, for example, you are probably making a game that only targets one or two of the christian 'flavors'. take the jehovah's witnesses for example. they read the bible and believe in God and Jesus, but detest spiritism and keep very far away from anything to do with it. so the Holy Lands RPG is out as an option for them because in that game you're fighting demons and monsters and other minions of the Devil. if fact, i don't think you could make an RPG for that group that would be any fun at all since your characters would have nothing to fight against...all your characters would do is go door-to-door and preach (which they do IRL anyway) - you'd have to base the character advancement system on how many people you converted to 'the truth'. i think that to make a religion-based RPG you'd have to go into it knowing you're going to offend someone, no matter how hard you try not to. as for the Da Vinci Code - i've neither read the book nor seen the movie. this is not because of any spiritual principals, only my belief that something so freakishly popular can't be very good. i'm sure someone will disagree with that - and all i have to say to you is "Britney Spears". though i know myself and i know that i can watch a movie about nearly anything (couldn't watch A Clockwork Orange after the rape scene - too realistic) and not be offended. they're make-believe to begin with. secondly, i welcome anyone's opinion, even (or especially) ones that go against what i believe because maybe they know something that will shead new light on what i already know. or maybe i'll think they're idiots - either way, i feel it's healthy to keep an open mind. and if i dismiss something along the way that turns out to be true in the end, at least i can say i did my best to discern right from wrong - and that's pretty much all i can do. |
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Sep 17 2006, 03:32 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
is this in SOTA'64? i'm really behind on my FanPro SR :oops: |
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Sep 17 2006, 03:47 PM
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#36
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I'll answer the Da Vinci Code. I'm a semi-practicing Catholic. Firstly, I hate to say, the writing style is horrible, which put me off on the wrong foot. Ignoring that, I did NOT enjoy Da Vinci Code because it made such a peurile, one-sided, poorly explained mess of religion, Catholicism in particular. It would be like if I wrote a book about DSF and I represented the forums as a group of all males who enjoy blowing things up and every single member is a borderline terrorist who lacks logic and compassion. Brown simply did bad research and propogated wicked (and wrong) stereotypes against everyone who happened to be religious in the book.
If you took the very basic plot (illuminati left a trail across Rome) and took out all of Brown's own anti-religious bigotry, stupid religious characters, incorrect information on religion (and poor writing, poor understanding of science, poor research), even if the Church was cast as the bad guy, I probably would have found it interesting. If you look at an example like Stigmata, the movie made a few years ago, I DID enjoy that. The Church was cast in a bad light, but they explained it in a way that made sense. The writers didn't put out false information or lie about the Church (or at least not about anything major). I also enjoyed Godfather III, where the Church was involved with a major scandal and several very high officials set up an assassination. I love stories about the Church and church history. I don't mind when the church is cast as serving an evil role. I DO mind when the author lies about the church to make his story, especially when he paints those lies as truth. I do mind when EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of the religion is evil and/or stupid. Paint a few high up members, but not *everyone*. |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:53 PM
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#37
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Well, isn't that true? I mean, excepting that doesn't include Snow Fox. |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:55 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Like... Star Wars? Or The Beatles? Or, um, that Jesus fella? ;)
I think you might be a little guilty of misrepresentation yourself.. [ Spoiler ] .. and there's more than one sympathetic religious person in the book IIRC. He does a number on Opus Dei, I admit, and I feel your pain there. I can't think of many geneticists that get a positive (much less accurate) representation in fiction. *Shrug*. Still, it has got a lot of people thinking and talking about christianity, and I'd have thought any christian would appreciate the benefits in that.
I think you're confusing the Da Vinci Code with its prequel Angels & Demons (which I personally preferred, as it happens, even though it has some very silly pseudosciencey bits in it like University-owned Mach 11 jets and floating liquid-metal-like antimatter). |
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Sep 17 2006, 04:58 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
There's stuff about this in various books, including Shadows of Asia, and more recently Runner Havens. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:10 PM
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#40
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
You're right, I meant Demons and Angels, I'm sorry. DVC is on my bookshelf and I look at it every day at work, but I haven't read it yet (and I'm not sure if I will). That's why my comments didn't make sense. I am not of the belief that all publicity is good publicity. I don't mind the Church being portrayed as a tool of a few evil individuals, as a political entity with it's own agenda, as someone the protagonist disagrees with, as a difficult organization to navigate around, or as a secretive and/or tremendously slow moving group. I DO mind when the Church is shown as being made up ENTIRELY of the superstitious, the uneducated, the violent, the hateful, the bigoted, the cowardly, the greedy and/or the power-hungry. If more than 50% of the characters who have personalities are shown to be like that without good reason (for instance, the main character has wandered into St. Mary's Intitute of the Mentally Retarded and Bigoted), I tend to get a little upset. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:15 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Fair enough, but I don't think that's the case with either book. In Angels & Demons, IIRC, most of the Catholics (apart from the main villain, who reoccurs in The Da Vinci Code but isn't the main villain in that book) are good guys. EDIT: This is what I'm talking about. Religious folks getting very upset about some perceived slight, that isn't (when you actually check the facts) a slight at all. Sheesh, the Pope himself has just been on the raw end of this exact same thing! |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:25 PM
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#42
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Plus Year of the Comet, Dragons of the Sixth World, and Loose Alliances.
Considering his previous job, I'm sure there were plenty of people just itching to jump his shit for being too conservative/hardline, for attacking other religions, or for god only knows what else. And, well... Mission accomplished. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:41 PM
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#43
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Can you name a single Catholic in the book who didn't fit one of those statements (being stupid, bigoted, etc.)? How many non-Catholics can you name? A lot of it IS also (admitedly) based on the writing style of Dan Brown. If you'd like, on Monday I can get the book and go through all the statements that characters, including the main character, make which are insulting and/or straight-out wrong. I don't think I'm alone in this either. I've spoken with non-Catholics, who felt similarly. I haven't met any Christians who have felt his portrayal is fair or balanced. I have spoken with non-Christians who didn't see any slight, but honestly, when it's not your group being discussed, you are less likely to see it. Also, non-Christians are less likely to see things which are simply false. As I said, I'm a stickler for getting the facts right, and that also rubbed me the wrong way. I also wouldn't say I'm 'very upset'. The question was whether I liked the book. The answer is no, I thought it was terrible. Here are one of the reasons why. Here are examples of stories which did not cast the Church in a favorable light, but which I liked anyway and here is why. No one likes to have the group they associate with cast in a bad light, but there are lines which are tolerable and lines where I simply lose respect for the piece of work which is coming off as insulting. I'm not waving signs or fire-bombing Dan Brown's house. I'm simply answering a question about my reading preferences. |
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Sep 17 2006, 05:58 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Yeah it's not my group, so maybe I just didn't pick up on it, like you say. And I'm also going from memory- although looking on-line to refresh my memory I think Cardinal Mortati is one such 'good guy' and there was some Swiss Guard Commander as well, I think. But please yes, go and check for me.
Ahem. *Looks upwards* ;):P |
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Sep 17 2006, 06:11 PM
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#45
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
To be fair, though, it's not like religous groups are the only people that do so. |
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Sep 17 2006, 06:14 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
No I guess not. It's a human failing, but I'm sure it can't be improved by philosophies that place more importance on faith and feeling than evidence and reason.
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Sep 17 2006, 07:59 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
ok...i'll give you star wars. the beatles i won't - i only consider them good, not very good and which Jesus do you mean ;) |
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Sep 17 2006, 08:02 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
ok, well, that proves my point: i'm really not up to date with FanPro SR...the bulk of my SR time has been spent on SR3 mainly using books that originated from FASA. |
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Sep 17 2006, 08:06 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
You know... that fella who plays poker. ;) |
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Sep 17 2006, 08:42 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 6,599 |
oh ya. well, you can't argue against a guy who can cut a banana in half by throwing a playing card at it :) |
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