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> Streamlining gameplay
Chaos Kingpin
post Sep 17 2006, 09:39 AM
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..Any suggestions or search help... I know I have read similar posts here but cant find them now.

I want to avoid a lot of dice rolling, anybody have a good system for this.

So it is still "game-like" and not just a group of people telling a story... but much less looking in books and searching tables of contents or GM screens...
know what I mean?
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Steak and Spirit...
post Sep 17 2006, 10:08 AM
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Kind of. Unfortunately, dice rolling is pretty integral to the system. If you're having it hard w/ SR4, you must have hated SR3.

I'd suggest just keeping a quick-reference notepad nearby with roll suggestions. As a GM, you'll find that the more often you do rolls, the more likely they are to pool up in your memory bank, making page references less likely.

Or. Just start winging it.
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knasser
post Sep 17 2006, 11:35 AM
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Have a cheat sheet handy giving the number of dice for various tasks and have it part of the PC or NPC writeup. Encourage players not to break from these. So you don't need to be looking up the modifiers for Full Auto et al. The character sheet just lists x dice to hit at y damage with PC favourite weapon. Do the same for spells cast at a particular force.

It'll take a while to work all these out and note them down, due to different ranges, etc.

If you're looking for dice rolls that you can actually cut out of the game entirely without messing up the balance, I don't really have any suggestions. There's a rule about purchasing successes instead of rolling once you have sufficient dice pool (at four for one ratio), SR4, pg.55. You could encourage players to use this rule and use it yourself. That Samurai with 12 dice to hit with his Ruger? Just assume that he gets three hits normally. Again, note all these values down so that you don't have to look them up. I'd find this a bit lifeless myself, but perhaps it's what you're looking for.

Hope this helps,

-K.
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Thanee
post Sep 17 2006, 11:45 AM
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Often you can simply go by the average roll (4:1 dice:hit ratio as per the book, or 3:1 for a more accurate gauge of a character's full ability; the 4:1 also includes the cost for no glitches, which could be ignored in many cases) instead of actually rolling.

Bye
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Walknuki
post Sep 17 2006, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
Have a cheat sheet handy giving the number of dice for various tasks and have it part of the PC or NPC writeup.

I can't stress this enough. My players can't remeber one number from turn to turn to save their life.

Player, camly attempting to dispatch a goon, "Okay, I'm going to shoot the guy again with the same weapon, modifiers, and penalties I did last round... Okay so that's my Agility which is *searches paper* three and my Pistols which is *searches again* four. Okay. Any my laser sight adds *reads notes on laser sight for the 12th time* one. Okay. So that's eight and he's at 40 yards which makes iiiiiiiit *searches sheet yet again* long range. What's the penalty for long range again?"

Me, shaking with rage and frustration, "Two"

Player, still struggling with first grade math, "Right, two. So that's... uh... what was my pool again?"

At that point a vacancy usually opens up in our group due to player disembowelment. Add everything up for the players and NPC before hand.

Handgun: Short=8 dice, Medium=7 dice, Long=5 dice, Extreme=4 dice.

So when they want to shoot they just look at one number and roll. This doesn't reduce the number of rolls, but it does reduce the amount of math your players have to do, which can save their lives.
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Clyde
post Sep 17 2006, 02:03 PM
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Don't forget to precalculate damage for weapons and drain for spells!

Player: I fire my sniper rifle, getting 5 hits for umm what's that damage? Oh, yeah 7 plus 5 is uh 12 . . . oh and I'm loading explosive ammo so that adds . . . 1 . . . so 13 and -3 . . NO -4 AP!! 13 damage and -4 AP.

Me: The cat dies.

A statline like:

Submachine Gun 6P, -1AP 11 dice (0-10m) 10 dice (11-40m) 9 dice (41-80m) 8 dice (81-150m). 3 Recoil.

Besides organizing the sheets more effectively (this will take experimentation) make sure that the players know their rules. In our current D&D game we've got to constantly remind a couple players how their most common abilities work. I mean, if you cast a spell ten times a game and it's your "go to" combat ability wouldn't you frickin' know how to roll for it?

Finally, you may want to just skip using the modifiers as the book prints them (hard and fast). Instead, just eyeball it. One of the best features of the static 5 target number is that being a couple points off on the GM's part won't necessarily screw things over. In SR3, if you gave a guy a target number 5 shot instead of a target number 6 you changed the outcome completely, doubling the number of successes on average. In SR4 if you roll 5 dice instead of 6 (or vice versa) things are off by only 1/3 of a hit on average. It may be faster for you to just give them the penalties.

Also, be damn sure to tell your players ahead of time that you are interested in running things fast. Probably they are, too, but they shouldn't have to figure it out through telepathy.
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 17 2006, 02:46 PM
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Better preparation and better organization make things go faster. I list skills like this: Unarmed Combat: 9 (4, AGI, +1 Imp). This means that ten times out of eleven, the PC is rolling 9 dice, the total of Skill, Linked Attribute, and +1 from an Implant.

Next to every character's weapon I write dp X, where X is the total dice pool for using the weapon, including smartguns, etc.

Cheat sheets and the GM screen are everything.

Another technique is don't wait to roll the dice. When the player says, "I'm going to shoot that guy," , you say, "Fine," and immediately roll that guy's Reaction, then Body + Armor while the player is still counting out dice.

Also, encourage the players to have their dice ready. If the PC is in a gunfight with her Ingram Smartgun in her hand, with a dice pool of 10, suggest that she should have ten dice set aside and ready to roll while other characters are taking their actions. Then there's no delay when she wants to shoot. And if she does something other than shoot - say, Running - she knows she's got ten dice in front of her and her Running dp is eight, so she takes away two dice and is ready to go. Instead of counting, "One...two...three...four..."
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knasser
post Sep 17 2006, 03:31 PM
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I saw that someone had coloured the pips of their dice to speed counting hits with big dice pools. Get a tonne of blue d6's with white pips. Colour 1-4 a lighter blue and 5-6 bright red. Still useable as a regular die, but much better for Shadowrun.
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Dragoonkin
post Sep 17 2006, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
I saw that someone had coloured the pips of their dice to speed counting hits with big dice pools. Get a tonne of blue d6's with white pips. Colour 1-4 a lighter blue and 5-6 bright red. Still useable as a regular die, but much better for Shadowrun.

That was Aaron...an idea I'm quite thinking of blatantly thieving.
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Walknuki
post Sep 17 2006, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Dragoonkin)
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 17 2006, 10:31 AM)
I saw that someone had coloured the pips of their dice to speed counting hits with big dice pools. Get a tonne of blue d6's with white pips. Colour 1-4 a lighter blue and 5-6 bright red. Still useable as a regular die, but much better for Shadowrun.

That was Aaron...an idea I'm quite thinking of blatantly thieving.

Ditto. I did the same thing with blank dice for New WoD. I just colored in 8, 9, and 10 with 8 and 9 in blue and 10 in red so I knew to reroll it. Worked really well.

Unfortunatly my pens weren't really permament and they smudged off after repeated use. :|

Maybe I'll pick up some blank six siders and color in two sides in blue and one with a red dot (for 1's).
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Critias
post Sep 17 2006, 04:42 PM
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Practice makes perfect, as with so much else in life. Instead of tweaking the rules (and then having to get used to the tweaks), why not just...play more?
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SL James
post Sep 17 2006, 04:51 PM
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Plus, eventually you'll see how predictable the results of rolling dice are under conditions your PCs will encounter, and if you want, you can just do a little handwave and say "Oh, well this guy is toast" and move on.
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knasser
post Sep 17 2006, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
Practice makes perfect, as with so much else in life. Instead of tweaking the rules (and then having to get used to the tweaks), why not just...play more?

:rotfl:

The true dumpshocker's response.
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ShadowDragon
post Sep 17 2006, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (Walknuki)
QUOTE (Dragoonkin @ Sep 17 2006, 10:41 AM)
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 17 2006, 10:31 AM)
I saw that someone had coloured the pips of their dice to speed counting hits with big dice pools. Get a tonne of blue d6's with white pips. Colour 1-4 a lighter blue and 5-6 bright red. Still useable as a regular die, but much better for Shadowrun.

That was Aaron...an idea I'm quite thinking of blatantly thieving.

Ditto. I did the same thing with blank dice for New WoD. I just colored in 8, 9, and 10 with 8 and 9 in blue and 10 in red so I knew to reroll it. Worked really well.

Unfortunatly my pens weren't really permament and they smudged off after repeated use. :|

Maybe I'll pick up some blank six siders and color in two sides in blue and one with a red dot (for 1's).

I did this already as well. And I had the same experience with the pens rubbing off. Permanent pens (IE Sharpies) don't work on dice :P Use paint.
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hobgoblin
post Sep 17 2006, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (SL James @ Sep 17 2006, 06:51 PM)
Plus, eventually you'll see how predictable the results of rolling dice are under conditions your PCs will encounter, and if you want, you can just do a little handwave and say "Oh, well this guy is toast" and move on.

hmm, mfb in training? :silly:
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 17 2006, 07:13 PM
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Shadowdragon: paint is heavy.
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SL James
post Sep 17 2006, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 17 2006, 12:42 PM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Sep 17 2006, 06:51 PM)
Plus, eventually you'll see how predictable the results of rolling dice are under conditions your PCs will encounter, and if you want, you can just do a little handwave and say "Oh, well this guy is toast" and move on.

hmm, mfb in training? :silly:

Hardly. I've hated SR4 as long as he has. I've just played more of the final rules than he has (with the benefit of the ones in SM) and it is, indeed, quite predictable after a while to figure out whether or not I can (for example) kill a roomful of people with a spell without taking drain. The answer is invariably, "Yes." Combat is slightly less predictable because of dodging, but mostly it's a result of "If my mage shoots, two shots will kill them because he only got 8-9 boxes on the first shot. If the shooter fires one shot, they die."

Take Feng Shui Shuffle for example. My mage killed three people with net 10 boxes of damage without taking any drain (he had hits left over, in fact). The guy he didn't immediately kill had 9 boxes and failed miserably when shooting at my teammate (who also missed through some sort of mad fluke), until my mage hit him again with 11 net DV (and, again, no drain). Id' have been better off just doing a handwave, and more realistically given the stats the shooter would have killed the bastard without my mage needing to hit the leader again.

Bo-ring.
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James McMurray
post Sep 17 2006, 11:12 PM
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If enemies are dropping like flies to the party's mage, it's because the GM wants it that way. Otherwise they would have been made capable of defending themselves.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 17 2006, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (SL James @ Sep 18 2006, 12:43 AM)
Id' have been better off just doing a handwave, and more realistically given the stats the shooter would have killed the bastard without my mage needing to hit the leader again.

Bo-ring.

So, what exactly do you find boring?

The predictable distribution of probability, or the fact that this prediction won't guarantee something?
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ShadowDragon
post Sep 17 2006, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Shadowdragon: paint is heavy.

Maybe...is it heavy enough to throw off the results of a die roll though? I mean technically the 1 side is the heavier than the 6 side because there are more pips carved out on the 6 side, but the weight difference is so negligable that results aren't changed. I'm not suggesting painting the entire sides of dice, just tiny dots.
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Ankle Biter
post Sep 17 2006, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Sep 17 2006, 02:13 PM)
Shadowdragon: paint is heavy.

Maybe...is it heavy enough to throw off the results of a die roll though? I mean technically the 1 side is the heavier than the 6 side because there are more pips carved out on the 6 side, but the weight difference is so negligable that results aren't changed. I'm not suggesting painting the entire sides of dice, just tiny dots.

Just filling in the dots with paint may even make the die fairer...
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Dragoonkin
post Sep 17 2006, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Sep 17 2006, 02:13 PM)
Shadowdragon: paint is heavy.

Maybe...is it heavy enough to throw off the results of a die roll though? I mean technically the 1 side is the heavier than the 6 side because there are more pips carved out on the 6 side, but the weight difference is so negligable that results aren't changed. I'm not suggesting painting the entire sides of dice, just tiny dots.

The material they use to fill the dots is supposed to replace the entire weight of the removed material. If you use paint you'll probably slightly weight your dice towards rolling 5s.

But I'm talking like...maybe a fraction of a percent more, I can't see any more than that. Some people might get uppity about it, though.
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Critias
post Sep 18 2006, 01:03 AM
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You might have better luck with a highlighter or a permanent marker or something -- shade in the 5's and 6's, and call it done.
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James McMurray
post Sep 18 2006, 01:24 AM
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Critias: people have said that the highlighters and permanent markers don't work. That's why paint was originally mentioned.
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 18 2006, 01:27 AM
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It's not like I've done a scientific study, but I would be wary of the weight of the paint throwing off the curve.

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