 Dikote, Any rules until Augmented? |
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 Sep 20 2006, 02:54 AM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
look i need Dikote for my Ally spirit....SO i can make it into a ares... gun and um...
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Sep 20 2006, 03:24 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
It would have been nice if someone who'd seen a gun had walked past the equipment list while it was being written.
I started on a firearms rewrite, but I thought I'd wait until after Arsenal. |
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Sep 20 2006, 03:30 AM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Speaking of Arsenal, I wonder if they are going, yet another time, confuse the word "velocity" with the phrase "cyclic rate"? Want to bet? :( |
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Sep 20 2006, 10:04 AM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I surely hope they wont implement any rules for engines in Arsenal... it so depressing to see SR limp behind actual developments. (Hybrid cars? Ethanol? Combined? uh...)
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Sep 20 2006, 01:39 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Back in the days of yore, when I actually worked in a lab that did diamond deposition, the rule of thumb from my literature searches on diamond applications was, "Diamond makes anything better," superhard ceramics included. The difference in ballistic resistance is measurable even with a thin film diamond coating, even on boron nitride or other superhard ceramics. Projectiles just tended to skitter off the surface a little more often with the diamond coat present. It's a matter of percentages, but it's just at the edge of equaling a +1 armor bonus on the SR3/SR4 armor scales. Thus, allowing Dikote to deliver a +1/+1 to armor is, IMO, defensible (pun intended.) Giving a damage or AP bonus to a dikoted edged weapon is...well, it's more of an exaggeration. I wouldn't mind a 1-point AP bonus to dikoted edged weapons in my games, but if it chaps your ass, leave it out.
OTOH, it's just what I got my degree in. :) Dikote should work on any material that is a) fairly rigid (like steel or a ceramic) b) can survive the heat of the deposition process Therefore, any armor with rigid ballistic plates with a hard face of steel, ceramic, or maybe titanium [1] could include dikoting. In my games, I always allowed "vest with plates," security armor, and military grade armor to receive dikoting. Helmets could receive it, but wouldn't provide a separate armor bonus - you'd only get one +1/+1 for a suit of dikoted armor and helmet. [1] I wanted to exclude titanium as a dikote target as having too low a stiffness, but that was a brain fart. I still have some titanium target plates (uncoated, alas) from the lab. There was an experiment to deposit diamond on titanium for medical implant purposes - diamond was laudably hydrophobic, so slime and bacteria didn't cling. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:29 PM
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#31
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Was the reason for this determined? Though BN has a lower hardness than diamond, it has a greater pressure resistance. Granted, I was mainly remembering aramide demonstrators coated with silicon carbide... which failed as miserably as the ones without.
Any recommondations on current literature? ;) |
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Sep 20 2006, 03:16 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Part of the issue was the surface modification - a deposited diamond coating could be slicker than a typical sintered ceramic surface. Some of it, IIRC, was also chalked up to hardness, but the whole reason wasn't entirely understood at the time (c1995). Coatings in general just seem to help ballistic resistance, wear applications, etc. A diamond coating does wonders for the wear life of tungsten carbide drill bits, for example - up to 10-fold life increases.
If you want to know about corrosion or textbooks for masters-level courses, yes. If you mean on diamond deposition, no, nothing cutting-edge current. |
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Sep 20 2006, 03:42 PM
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#33
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Unless you plan to drill steel, of course.
Thanks - the former sounds interesting, as, unfortunately, the textbook of my course concerning materials science partially is... uh, historic. |
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Sep 20 2006, 07:29 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Oh, right. Iron does love that carbon.
I'll look into it tonight, if I remember after getting this get-it-done-yesterday proposal off my desk. I know a couple of my undergrad text books (used mid-90s) were referenced extensively in the grad-level materials course I took last semester. Offhand... A handy generic reference book is "Metals Handbook, Desk Edition, 2nd edition," by ASM International. I've used that several times in gaming debates, like how toxic depleted uranium isn't (on par with other heavy metals, like lead), plus a few times at the office while actually doing materials engineering rather than pushing paper. Also, "Principles and Prevention of Corrosion, 2nd edition," by Denny A. Jones. That's come in useful several times at the office. |
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Sep 21 2006, 02:25 PM
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#35
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Thanks a lot - those look like serious material.
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Sep 21 2006, 06:21 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Porter & Easterling's "Phase Transformations" is a key, basic book. It's turned up in both my masters and bachelor's courses at two different universities. Ohring's "Material Science of Thin Films" also turned up in both places but, like the corrosion book earlier, it's a bit specialized. |
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Sep 22 2006, 05:55 PM
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#37
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Though those look indeed more specialized, they might come handy - thanks. :)
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Sep 23 2006, 07:20 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 671 Joined: 9-March 06 Member No.: 8,353 |
I reckon dikoted materials are not mentioned mainly because the SOTA is now such that diamond is a less desireable material to coat blades with then what they come with naturally.
And, frankly, a thin layer of diamond on armor that is even slightly flexible will shatter as soon as anything hits it anyway. |
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Oct 8 2006, 05:06 PM
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#39
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 11-July 06 Member No.: 8,865 |
So here's a question. Could you (in theory) dikote bullets (Just the tips, before propellants are added, obviously), and what would that do for you in game terms? Granted, you'd probably have to use special material to withstand the process, but would it be worthwhile?
And what would the interaction be between Dikote Bullets vs Dikote Armor? Also, cost was mentioned earlier in this thread. Since so many other previously high costs have come way down (cyberarms, for example), it seems likely to me that Dikote could come down too, becoming a cost effective purchase? |
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Oct 8 2006, 05:14 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
If you Dikote cheap, scratchy brown toilet paper, does it still burn your ass? Is it in fact too smooth to pick up any, ah, "material" at all? If it was stuck to the bottom of your shoe, would you slip? If not, what would happen if you stepped on a contact explosion land mine?
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Oct 10 2006, 04:31 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I use a form of the old Hardened Armor rules with a twist or two. You could use this to represent the Dikote armor.
Hardening Some armors have a hardening rating representing hard plates. This has the following effects: · If the DV is less then or equal to the Hardening then the attack just bounces off. There is no stun roll made. · It reduces the AP of any attack up to the rating. · It adds it’s rating to both the ballistic and impact ratings (reduced by how much it is counteracting the AP) Hardening is noted after the Ballistic and Impact in parenthesis. Cyberlimbs can have a point or two of hardening if they have armor. Hardening is not available in civilian armors. Security armor can have up to a 4 with a security license. Military armor goes up to a 6. After that they use Hard Suits or vehicles instead. Ex: Full Body Armor becomes 6/4(4) An attack with a heavy pistol 5p -1ap looses the AP on the hardening and leaves 6/4(3) so add the ballistic plus left over hardening (9) to body test. That heavy pistol with APDS would become 5p -5ap so the armor becomes 5/4(0) as the -5 removes the hardening and one point of armor. But a light pistol doing 4p 0ap bounces right off the hardening. A knife doing 4p would also skip right off. |
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Oct 11 2006, 05:18 AM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 3-October 06 Member No.: 9,527 |
By the way, speaking as someone in Baghdad at the moment and with some friends who stupidly sit partially exposed in the rather inhospitable environment I have to say a change of even a tiny amount can save your life. We had a ESapi plate come by a while ago that had the tip of a 7.62 round JUST sticking through it. Painful? Yes, but pain is good, it reminds you that the bad guy didnt just shatter your sternum creating high velocity bone fragments. Once I get some pictures of all the gear we wear I'll prolly post 'em and give you guys some idea just how much we wear. But for a teaser let me just say the Michelin Man has NOTHING on me. Z |
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Oct 11 2006, 09:30 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Holy fuck! Any idea how that happened -- do they have WC core ammo out there or did it hit right on top of an earlier impact or something? You can see the full setup with ESBIs here (PDF file) -- apparently not quite the same you're wearing, but pretty bulky nevertheless. |
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