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> Does DS still need two Shadowrun forums?, ..one for 4th and one for the rest..
Do you think the "Shadowrun" and "Shadowrun 4" forums might as well be merged now?
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Witness
post Sep 19 2006, 05:24 PM
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EDIT: that should read "deal with THOSE people", obviously.

I guess this might be contentious, but I'm starting to wonder if it's still necessary to have a separate "Shadowrun" forum and "Shadowrun 4" forum? There isn't all that much difference in the content these days, and personally I'm finding it harder and harder to remember what threads are going on where! Still I can see arguments either way.

Just wondering if the admins had been thinking about this, or if anyone had strong feelings on the subject. Keep the status quo? Merge the forums? Or keep things split, but differently ('rules questions' and 'setting questions' maybe? Or do those two run together too often? *shrug*)
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Elve
post Sep 19 2006, 05:45 PM
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I really liked the old way, with one forum on each book...
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Zolhex
post Sep 19 2006, 05:53 PM
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Well I null voted as you didn't give enough choices.

The reason in my opinion for a seperate forum is so people who wish to still play SR3 can post questions while those playing the current version can do so in their own fourm with out having to decide is this person posting about 4th or another edtion.
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Witness
post Sep 19 2006, 06:23 PM
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Granted. I'm just not seeing many posts like that in the Shadowrun forum these days.
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nezumi
post Sep 19 2006, 06:29 PM
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I like it how it is. The number of SR3 only questions has dropped down to almost nil, so we don't really seem to need an SR3-only section. The number of general SR questions, as opposed to SR4-only questions, is still pretty high though. 90% of the SR4 stuff I'm not interested in (with the remaining 10% mostly being posted in the wrong forum), so this at least lets me separate the chaff from the wheat.

What I'd REALLY like is a way to filter out my 'view new posts' so I don't see the SR4 forum and the Welcome to the Shadows forum.
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Witness
post Sep 19 2006, 07:31 PM
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I get the impression most people just look at the SR4 forum, and don't bother with the other- perhaps assuming that the SR4 forum is the main one for general Shadowrun chat, and SR is just for SR3 and old-timers.
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eidolon
post Sep 19 2006, 07:35 PM
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If somebody can't read, and posts to the wrong forum, that's their problem. Granted, you could put "General Shadowrun" on there in place of just "Shadowrun", but it's pretty clear that Shadowrun 4 is for well, SR4 stuff.

I'm for a split. 95% of what gets discussed in SR4 is completely worthless to me, and as was mentioned, I don't want to have to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out what edition somebody is talking about when they don't think to make it clear.
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nezumi
post Sep 19 2006, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (Witness)
I get the impression most people just look at the SR4 forum, and don't bother with the other- perhaps assuming that the SR4 forum is the main one for general Shadowrun chat, and SR is just for SR3 and old-timers.

I wonder if this is your opinion because of some detail I'm missing (perhaps we no longer consider SR4 part of Shadowrun?) or if because you believe people are generally pretty stupid.

Then again, considering the authors of most of the misplaced threads, I'd probably have to lean towards the latter myself.
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Fresno Bob
post Sep 19 2006, 11:43 PM
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Maybe there should be a "Shadowrun World" forum, and a "Shadowrun Rules" forum.
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eidolon
post Sep 20 2006, 12:45 AM
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Which rules? 1st Edition? 2nd?
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Witness
post Sep 20 2006, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Sep 19 2006, 04:00 PM)
QUOTE (Witness @ Sep 19 2006, 02:31 PM)
I get the impression most people just look at the SR4 forum, and don't bother with the other- perhaps assuming that the SR4 forum is the main one for general Shadowrun chat, and SR is just for SR3 and old-timers.

I wonder if this is your opinion because of some detail I'm missing (perhaps we no longer consider SR4 part of Shadowrun?) or if because you believe people are generally pretty stupid.

Then again, considering the authors of most of the misplaced threads, I'd probably have to lean towards the latter myself.

Quite simply: there's twice as much activity in SR4 as in SR, but the number of 'general posts' seems about the same- there may even be a slight excess in SR4.

I'm not accusing anybody of stupidity, just observing usage. The existing categories aren't very clear cut (but could they ever be?).

The SR4 forum isn't just for SR4 rules questions but for the SR4 setting.

Now if I want to discuss something more general to the world, like the nature of space or magic or something (and these tend to be the kind of topics that interest me most), then I'm interested in discussing information from all the books, including SR4. Where do such posts belong? The SR forum because it's (supposedly) general or the SR4 forum because it includes SR4 information? Given that a number of DSers seem to want to hear nothing to do with SR4, I think it's quite understandable that many such posts end up in the SR4 forum, even though it would make more sense to put them in the 'general' SR forum.

The present doesn't exclude the past but the past doesn't include the present. You know?
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Jrayjoker
post Sep 20 2006, 01:41 PM
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I voted to keep them separate. SR3 and before has a definite rule base, and SR4 has its own as well. Rules related questions should be sent to their respective forums. The general stuff can go in either, but those playing SR3 will probably tend to stick with SR3, etc.

I did not like how the choices were worded either, but I still avoided the null vote because ai thought it was a good poll.
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Bull
post Sep 20 2006, 02:23 PM
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We've been planning to merge the two forums since SR4 was announced. However, with the lack of books following SR4's release, we held off.

Honestly, I don't really see the point of the "divided forums". Besides perpetuating the SR3 vs SR4 stuff, the majority of the threads in the SR3 forums are not really rules, or even edition specific. And heck, there's a fair bit of stuff in the SR4 forum that's not really rules specific as well.

Right now, there's not enough traffic and daily postings to really require us to create a bunch of sub forums for things like Rule, World Discussion, etc. The "Book specific" forums proved that to us. So I doubt we'll do anything along these lines anytime in the near future.

Plus, I don't personally like the fact that we have that split between the two forums right now. There's plenty of crossover posters, but there are also a lot of folks who are only posting and reading one of the two. Which means that for the "general" discussions, we're potentially missing valuable input. Just because someone hasn't upgraded to SR3 doesn't mean their opinions about Shadowrun are any less valid (And vice-versa).

Chances are at some point in the future the two will be merged, but there's no real time frame for it. It's definately low on our priorities at this point.

Bull
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Witness
post Sep 20 2006, 03:22 PM
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Thanks Bull.

QUOTE (Casazil)
Well I null voted as you didn't give enough choices.

QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
I did not like how the choices were worded either, but I still avoided the null vote because ai thought it was a good poll.

I realised after I'd done the poll that the question being asked in the poll ought to have been phrased the same way around as the question in the thread title, and I know that was a stupid mistake.
But given that the only choices I can think of are a) merge, b) don't merge or c) other- how could I have done the poll options differently?
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 21 2006, 02:05 AM
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QUOTE (Bull)
Besides perpetuating the SR3 vs SR4 stuff

That's not going to end. I'm not sure what it's been like in the SR4 forums, but I've certainly noticed a definite cool-down since they were unambiguously split.

Personally, I like the fact that under the current system it's only an occasional annoyance when there's a discussion about SR3 in progress and someone pops in with input that would be perfectly relevant if the discussion were SR4, but it isn't. I'm sure it's happened the other way around. My vote is to more unambiguously split the two fora, though I'm not sure how to do so concisely. If it were only rules that were affected a merge would be easier, but as it stands merging would require almost every single post to carry an edition tag IMO.

~J
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eidolon
post Sep 21 2006, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If it were only rules that were affected a merge would be easier, but as it stands merging would require almost every single post to carry an edition tag IMO.


Agreed. Something like:

General Shadowrun
Subtitle: Posts not tied directly to rules.

Shadowrun: Legacy
Subtitle: Posts related to rules in previous editions of Shadowrun.

Shadowrun 4
Subtitle: Posts related to rules in the current abomina... edition of Shadowrun.

Maybe not perfect, but an option. (J/k about the abomination thing. In that I don't expect it to make it into the forums. ;))
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nezumi
post Sep 21 2006, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 20 2006, 09:23 AM)
Besides perpetuating the SR3 vs SR4 stuff

That's not going to end. I'm not sure what it's been like in the SR4 forums, but I've certainly noticed a definite cool-down since they were unambiguously split.

Personally, I like the fact that under the current system it's only an occasional annoyance when there's a discussion about SR3 in progress and someone pops in with input that would be perfectly relevant if the discussion were SR4, but it isn't. I'm sure it's happened the other way around. My vote is to more unambiguously split the two fora, though I'm not sure how to do so concisely. If it were only rules that were affected a merge would be easier, but as it stands merging would require almost every single post to carry an edition tag IMO.

~J

I would tend to agree. Playing SR3, I can comment on SR2 and even SR1 because the rulesets are based on one another. However I really can't comment on SR4 because the mechanics are just so completely different (excepting that both use d6's). Heck, even the world seems substantially different between SR4 and SR3.

So the old idea that just grouping SR3 and SR2 forums together really doesn't apply any more. SR3 and SR4 mechanics problems and solutions simply cannot work together, they don't make any sense. We will, for the rest of perpetuity, have to know whether a poster is talking about SR4 or SR1-3 before we can answer the question, and we all know 90% of all posters won't bother mentioning the edition when the question is asked. So why not make it easier and make two separate forums so we know when we're going in?
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Witness
post Sep 21 2006, 02:33 PM
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I think after this discussion I'd now favour just changing the names and order of the existing forums:

Shadowrun 4 becomes "Shadowrun: general discussion and SR4 related questions"

Shadowrun becomes "Shadowrun Legacy: discussion specific to SR3 and earlier rules and settings"
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Adam
post Sep 21 2006, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE
We will, for the rest of perpetuity, have to know whether a poster is talking about SR4 or SR1-3 before we can answer the question, and we all know 90% of all posters won't bother mentioning the edition when the question is asked

Unless, of course, every thread *requires* you to select a tag/button/something that indicates which edition it's for ...
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eidolon
post Sep 21 2006, 06:53 PM
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I had thought about that, but I decided against suggesting it when my brains responded with "that would be an annoying pain in the ass".
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Adam
post Sep 21 2006, 07:04 PM
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The advantage of such a method is it would allow viewers to only display posts with tags that they *wanted* to see, or, alternatively, hide all threads matching certain tags.

And, of course, it would only be mandatory for creation of new threads, not new posts. How many new threads does someone create in a day?
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 21 2006, 07:10 PM
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Well, for some… ;)

I like that idea. It would probably be best implemented with a five-level granularity (SRClassic Rules, SRClassic Setting, Edition-Agnostic, SR4 Setting, SR4 Rules).

As a side-effect, it would probably nuke the spam we've been seeing lately.

~J
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eidolon
post Sep 21 2006, 07:41 PM
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I don't know. What you're proposing, Adam, almost seems like it would mean a ridiculous amount of reworking the forums. I'm not familiar with the Invision stuff though, so I could be wrong.

As far as fine level goes, if you're doing things that way, there's no end to the possible levels, and no selection is going to "fit" everyone. I suspect that a large number of users would just select to view everything, and that doesn't take care of the issue at all. In fact, since what is desired (at least by some) is getting users more involved across the forums, it would be completely the opposite, I think.

Hmm.
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Witness
post Sep 21 2006, 07:48 PM
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Would be cool if you could do it, though.
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Adam
post Sep 21 2006, 08:01 PM
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It would be a large re-working of the forum, yes.

And there would be no end to the amount of customization you could have, but there would certainly be default settings available [obviously necessary for users who do not have an account or are not logged in].

There are a lot of options beyond rules/setting stuff too -- tagging threads as "GM", "Player", "In-Character", etc etc. Theoretically, there could be an unlimited number of tags, just like the way post-tagging works on blogs and blog services like technorati.com
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