 Why Shadowrun 4? |
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 Sep 20 2006, 01:30 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,131  |
Ok so I played Shadowrun 1st and 2nd ed, I bought the 3rd ed book several years ago but never really played it. Now I have the 4th edition book and started up a campaign in it with a group of 4 new friends. My old group wouldnt leave DnD to try anything else which got really old. I have been wanting to do a Shadowrun Game for awhile now or Cyberpunk. Anyway I was wondering with all the stuff they have out for 3rd edition and with all the inconsisitancies and lack of stuff for 4th edition why play 4th and not 3rd?
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Sep 20 2006, 01:39 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
4th is easier to use/learn, unified, and streamlined.
If your group is the type that needs a splatbook for everyone then you'll probably want to stick with 3rd, at least for now. Also, if the group is the type that prefers to rely almost completely on the rules instead of the GM, you'll also want to stick with 3rd. 4th was built on the idea that the GM would have a lot of control over the game. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:06 PM
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#3
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Bah. I played it last night for the first time. It's no more "streamlined".
Having fewer rules and options to deal with is not the same as "streamlined". Well, I guess you could call it streamlined. The same way you could strip the wings off a 747 and call it streamlined. The GM was a GM at Gencon this year, and seemed to have a pretty good handle on things (he had to look a lot of stuff up, but he admitted to having a poor memory; it was more important that he knew where to look immediately and had a firm grip on the system overall). Having GM'd countless hours of 3rd, my take on the way he handled his game was somewhat akin to the way I handle mine in terms of grasp of the rules, game knowledge, management skills, etc. (I have slightly stronger rules-fu, but I've had my game longer ;).) You know what was immediately apparent? The GM has just as much thinking to do when calling for tests. The players are just as likely to need advice and instruction when new to the game as they do in 3rd, and don't retain that information any better than they do in 3rd. The system overall doesn't run any faster or cleaner than 3rd does in the hands of a GM that knows what he/she is doing. Overall, I got the impression that the only reason people could justify saying that the game was "easier", "streamlined", etc. is because there's just not as much material present to "have to know". Once they start pumping out rules bloaty goodness, it'll be deja vu. Only it won't be deja vu, since it has happened before. Still. ;) The game itself isn't all that bad, admittedly. I would have liked a game that was less "OMG the GM said there's an NPC so we better shoot it!" and a bit more "let's find out what that NPC wants" (in other words, it felt like a 1st level game of D&D where the only thing you see is a goblin camp), but I suspect that the extremely limited scenario was due to it having been a demo game with pre-gen characters. I could easily see myself having fun playing 4th, if it was the the only available option (due to whatever circumstance). However, given my library of 3rd edition and my still preferring its rules system, tone, and general setting over the new, I don't really see myself buying 4th, running 4th, or playing it unless there's nothing else going on. Opinions change, and mine might change more in the future, but I still can't and don't buy the "streamlined" argument. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:22 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
It might be because of one or more of the following: a) You had a mission that was set up by them GM to be a quick, fun kill'em all mission. b) Your group has a shoot first ask questions later mentality c) Your group hasnt figured out non leathal ways around guards d) Your group hasnt figured out how to avoid guards e) The mission was set up where you would be railroaded into a situation that requred combat. There are ways around everything without using lethal actions (Using a pair of flash bangs to knock out guards) and there are missions that never see combat (Search this block of buildings for a hidden bomb, find it before it goes off and disarm it). |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:26 PM
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#5
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
You've got the idea. Sorry if I wasn't clear though. I was trying to coax them into more of a "thinking" game rather than the old "kill 'em all".
I knew what was going on (using your list, it was a combinatoin of a, b, e), but when you jump into a demo game late, what can you do, you know? I was just grateful that the let me jump in with them although they had started. Sure it wasn't what I'd consider a perfect game, but I know that it wasn't a fault of the game itself. It was ABE! :D |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:27 PM
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#6
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Moving this to the SR4 forum.
And I'll also remind everyone to keep it civil and friendly. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:33 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I won't go into all the gorey details, as there have been tons of threads about this on the SR4 boards, but even some of the people that hate SR4 admit that it runs faster.
cybertrucker: I'd suggest checking out the SR4 board. This thread has been done more times then I can remember. Basically what it'll boil down to is: 1) if you've got a ton of SR3 stuff and don't feel the need for a new edition, don't switch. 2) If you really want a new edition because you didn't like SR3, switch. 3) If you want a game that is going to be supported by the company, go with SR4. 4) If yo have a ton of stuff for SR3 but 2 and/or 3 are true, go with SR4. The crunchy bits don't transfer easily, but the flavor and world information is all still good. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:35 PM
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#8
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
SR4 features less inconsistencies than the editions before... but, the slow release schedule is a problem to keep in mind. Most folks will only make the switch when all the main supplements are available. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:42 PM
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#9
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
And I'll say again, that all of these "advantages" will likely disappear as more and more materials come out.
See: any game that comes out with a core book followed by supplements. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:45 PM
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#10
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That wasn't what StreetMagic looked like, though. |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:48 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,417 |
less books to buy for it plus you could just convert some of the stuff from sr3 to sr4 if you really want to we do now and again
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Sep 20 2006, 02:50 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
My first session, was a bit shaky, spent a lot of time looking stuff up and with a hacker in the group, the matrix encounters were a lot slower.
But now, with 7 sessions under my belt, things go a lot quicker and the only slowness is due to me not having all the details setup from the start. Honestly, when I look at the difference between combat (melee and ranged), magic and matrix stuff, they all follow closely to the same model, which makes my GMing life a lot less hectic. I agree though, there are always non-lethal ways around obstacles. Its kinda funny...many of my players want to get into a shootout but when it comes to an encounter, they often find a way to avoid combat...As long as your GM is just presenting the scenario with obstacles, the players should have free reign on how they want to get past it... |
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 Sep 20 2006, 02:52 PM
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#13
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
The big thing I like from 4th Edition is the way the dice rolls work now with the fixed target number. I had a pretty similar system (house rule) in use already in 2nd Edition, and it makes so much more sense overall. It surely isn't perfect, but it's a lot better (IMHO). I always found that the target number modifications messed with the probabilities too much, having that weird break at 6, where suddenly another +1 has almost no effect on the outcome, and so on. You can quite easily (well, I can, anyways) figure out what the effect of a modifier will be on a roll now, which makes adjudicating situations and applying modifiers on the fly a lot easier. And you don't need to be afraid to mess up everything, just because you give a +2 modifier to the target number, which turns a roll from quite easy to almost impossible (<- a bit of an exaggeration, admittedly) already. The scale is finer and that's a good thing. I also like that attributes and skills are more seriously linked now (with the exception of programs using no attributes in many cases, which is a little weird). The game runs very smooth in practice, once you are used to the basics, something I cannot really say about the earlier editions. It's very easy to just come up with some kind of attribute-attribute or attribute-skill combination for a non-routine test on the fly. Then, it will probably be easier to find people willing to play SR4 now, and it will only grow, since most people usually play with the most recent rules set of a game. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:54 PM
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#14
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I don't think so. At least in my case, the advantages will only improve with the new material, because they are the very foundation of the system. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:57 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I agree, completely, which is why I house-ruled in that using programs actual goes to a skill + attribute test, with the program rating + 1 limiting the total successes, much like force works with magic (except for it is magic x 2, as the upper limit). It works quite nicely and then puts the importance back on the skill and attribute, not the program rating... |
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Sep 20 2006, 02:59 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,417 |
well ican't really comment on the old editions cause sr4 the only one i've played but i really enjoy it and i found that if you have a group of three of you (gm yourself and another player) before getting to a bigger group it is a lot easier to understand the dice rolls and what you need for certain things... but thats just my take on it
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Sep 20 2006, 03:20 PM
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#17
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
That's not a bad idea at all. :) Bye Thanee |
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Sep 20 2006, 03:23 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I can't take complete credit for that, as it was something I found in Serbitar's optional matrix rules. I just tweaked it to add the + 1. We also limit successes by skill rating + 1, to put more focus on skills, so this was just a natural progression. It gives the game a different feel when defaulting can only generate one success (unless you use edge). |
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Sep 21 2006, 07:26 AM
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#19
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
That's a good idea. I also like the idea that you can get up to (skill) successes, but additional successes require two hits apiece. In other words if you have a skill of 3 but roll 5 hits you get 3 successes, plus one for the two hits you rolled above 3, for four total successes. It sounds complicated when described like that, but in play it'd become almost automatic. As for why SR4 I agree completely that SR3 required some major streamlinig. Magic, decking, rigging, melee combat, ranged combat, stealth... almost everything you did in SR3 used its own unique ruleset, to the point that a rigger and a decker almost weren't playing the same game. It was a nightmare trying to remember all the mutually orthogonal rulesets. In terms of streamlining, SR4 wins hands down, and this is a good thing. I do believe, however, that it was a mistake to ditch variable target numbers completely. Simplifying the game in that way is a different animal entirely from the goal of streamlining, and amounts to throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I sincerely believe that variable TNs *and* variable thresholds could have been combined, with a little work, into something truly great. Oh well, I guess that's a dream for SR5, coming to us probably sometime in 2015 or so. :P |
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Sep 21 2006, 07:42 AM
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#20
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,043 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
In my own house rules for SR2, which are kinda similar in having (mostly) fixed TN, I actually used two TN... 4 and 5. But that's it, everything else was done with number of dice rather. Not a big difference to completely the fixed TN in SR4. The problem with the TN starts when you go to 6 (and especially beyond 6). With the fixed TN it now works like the system was supposed to work from the beginning, where the result of a roll depends on the number of successes/hits not how high your best die roll is. In SR3 and previous editions, often tests were reduced to making a single success against a high TN, there was no real degree of success (not in practice, IMX, anyways), as the number of hits now allow. It was more of an all-or-nothing approach. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 21 2006, 07:42 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
The problem with variable TNs is that the probability curve gets all sorts of screwed up beyond TN 6. "TN 7" is right up there with a number of AD&D bits in my memories of mathematically asinine RPG concepts. There just isn't enough variance on a D6 to make variable TNs both useful and rational. What I do miss, however, is the pools. That was a mostly consistant and inoffensive way to add a level of complexity into the system, especially once you remove variable TN's effect of making the value of a die arbitrary. |
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Sep 21 2006, 01:23 PM
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#22
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the issue with the pools was that there was no clear rules for how they worked outside of combat-time. ie, no info about their refresh rate and so on.
end of story was that you suddenly had 6+ extra dice to roll for any non-combat magic, matrix or rigger test. and lets not forget adding another pool, the task pool via specific kinds of cyberware. in comparison we now have attribute or skill mods (that cant go higher then .5 above the existing value) and pool mods that add straight dice to the pool your currently rolling. and you may say that edge have taken over the job of the combat pool as it adds x dice to the pool x number of times with a refresh of GM's choice (with some in the clear suggestions)... all in all, streamlined may not be the right word, but cleaner surely is. that is as long as we can avoid seeing word hunts like one have in D&D with magic artifacts and their modifiers (if two modifiers have the same "named" source, the higher one overrule the lower one. end result, the writers starts tossing in all kinds of weird words to avoid them colliding with other modifiers). |
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Sep 21 2006, 02:08 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Ah, the task pool. I had forgotten about that....
And yeah, variable TNs really require at least a 10 side die. And even then, White Wolf went to a fixed TN as well with their new system, and it's much better. |
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Sep 21 2006, 02:28 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Real men convert SR4's rules to use Earthdawn's step system.
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Sep 21 2006, 02:29 PM
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#25
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, the Horrors...
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th April 2024 - 09:48 AM |
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