 Linear BP/Karma relation, Using BPs instead of Karma |
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 Sep 20 2006, 06:05 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346  |
I was browsing through the forums, looking to see if anyone had any character generation solutions proposed that used Build Points, rather than Karma, throughout the game.
Trying to see if there are any legitimate solutions/alternatives to the whole 'Buy some skills really high, while they're cheap in chargen' and 'Buy the other skills, really low, with karma when the game has started'. Any threads out there on this already? Has anyone had any luck actually implimenting this type of a system into SR4? |
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 Sep 20 2006, 06:27 PM
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#2
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,986 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I had made one for SR2. Pretty much for the reasons you stated, that 1/6/1/6/... builds are being rewarded instead of the more reasonable 3/4/3/4/... builds.
Basically, I went the other way around and made it Karma instead of BP (or would now, there weren't any BP in SR2, really). Costs are already there, you mostly need to figure out a total for Chargen (well, and how to translate race/quality costs, of course). Bye Thanee |
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Sep 20 2006, 06:34 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
*grin*
Yep. Exactly. Any threads out there from people who've already done this? |
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Sep 20 2006, 06:46 PM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes and yes. I've been handing out BPs instead of Karma since the game came out, and it has been working fine. As you've noticed, the Karma and Build Points are not "fair" when used together, so it is best to play with BPs as story awards or with character generation based on starting Karma. I find that BPs as story awards is easier, because the math is simpler. Although Serbitar has a functional version of the game going the other way. For discussion of this very point, try this old chestnut:
Or This Thread. Or Serbitar's Houserules. It works either way, but as printed, with BPs and Karma, the game becomes amazingly unfair in a short period of time. -Frank |
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Sep 20 2006, 06:50 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Interesting thought...but it is really variable. I mean, qualities have a 1:2 ratio between BP and Karma. Attributes have a variable ratio as you get higher abilities and skills are different from skills. Moving an attribute from 1 to 2 costs 10BP, but only 6 Karma. But, go to 4 to 5, it still just costs 10BP but now you are paying 15 Karma...
I would think it would be pretty tough to get a single system, you would have to have ratios based on what you are raising and what the scores are that are being affected...seems like a lot more trouble than what it is worth... |
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Sep 20 2006, 07:49 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I've just finished reading your thread, Frank, and I really like it - I'm going to move on to Serbitar's.
I have a question though - Would it be possible to impliment a linear straight build-point system, that also has increasing costs for skill/attribute levels? I.E - BP Cost = New Skill Level x 1, New Attribute Level x 5. (Totally pulled these numbers out of my ass. Haven't done any math on it.) What would be the ramifications of staging skill/attribute raises like this? It seems to me, that since the playing field is completely level w/ Build Points, there is no incentive to overspecialize, other than to have one field you excel at. Likewise, over-generalizing isn't career ending, because you've neither gained, nor lost ground. What do you think? Anyone? |
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Sep 20 2006, 07:53 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
nah, not really.
i whipped up something really quick, think it worked out to around 425 or thereabouts for most of the archetypes in the book if you use karma rules for chargen (attributes start at 1 + any racial bonus, skills at 0), give about 7.5 free karma for knowledge skills per point of int/log, and treat race, resources, and contacts as 1:1 conversion. the largest variations were found in the technomancer (which was, unsurprisingly, way under at around 380 karma i think) and the troll ganger (or whichever one has a couple attributes at 9... which costs a whole heck of a lot). think he showed up as something like 520+ karma. of course, it would help if they hadn't given him uncouth as a flaw... don't know what they were thinking. i'm pretty sure his BP cost is over as well because of that... (semi-common house rule i have seen is to ignore racial bonuses to stats when calculating karma costs to address that. iirc, using that variant, his cost was much more reasonable, and combined with swapping out uncouth for some other flaws, brought him to roughly the correct amount. problem being, this really makes orks even more appealing than they already are) otherwise, it worked out pretty good. it took me maybe a couple hours to work out how it should go, and i'm sure it has it's problems (haven't put it to use really, just did it to see how it would go), but it wasn't hard to figure out certainly. |
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Sep 20 2006, 08:27 PM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Definitionally no. If it's linear, it doesn't have increasing costs and if it it has increasing costs it isn't linear. What you could do is have a system where things are linear within a range and each range is more expensive than the one before it. For example, skills could cost 2 BP per point for ratings 1-3, 4 BPs per point for ratings 4-6, and 6 (or even 8) BP for ratings 7-9. That would seem to cover the three things you want out of life:
If you had other design goals, I'm sure that the math could be moved around a bit to take that into account.
That actually is a pretty big incentive. But any system where starting character points are spent at the same rate as points later in life is going to solve what appears to be your number one problem - that starting with a 6 and a 4 is better than starting with two fives once you have some games under your belt. Whether those points are spent in a linear, exponential, or geometric fashion is immaterial to game balance, it comes down to preference. And as soon as it comes to that, I can't actually give you definitive answers. What I can say is that both the Serbitar Chargen and the Frank Advancement system solve that problem, and they can't be used together, and some people prefer one and some people prefer the other. Hopefully something very similar to both of those sets of house rules will appear in the SR4 Player's Guide as game options. It's entirely possible that could occur, and that would be good for the game. -Frank |
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Sep 20 2006, 08:33 PM
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#9
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,986 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
That would automatically be the case if you used Karma in character generation. ;) Since I like the increasing cost, because it makes higher ratings a little more rare, as they should be, I used that approach back then. As it seems, Serbitar has a functional version for SR4, so no need to reinvent the wheel. ;) Bye Thanee |
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Sep 20 2006, 10:09 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Gah! I suppose sounding more like an ass than usual will teach me to post past my bed-time - I believe what I meant is: Has a character creation method been created that allows for higher skill levels to become increasingly more expensive, without having to do quite the overhaul that Serbitar has done - Attribute raises costing in the hundreds of karma, for instance. Afterall, I like the notion of rewarding players 3-4 karma after a run as opposed to plotting out a bellcurve, and determining that the run garnished a return of 24.2 - Not that I don't appreciate the intricacies of Serbitar's system. Just that I may have to extensively explain the character generation system I adopt to players who are familiar with SR4 canon. I'm not entirely sure how the word 'linear' snuck in there. But I am certain that tackling the issue tomorrow morning, after recharging a bit, might do be wonders. I'll be back. ;) |
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Sep 20 2006, 10:50 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I like the notion of rewarding players 3-6 points per completed run, with a 1-2 point award just for being there are out bi-weekly sessions...but, if you look at it from a large picture, taking current karma costs into affect (and that is just raising skills and attributes), it would take a helluva long time to get up to a prime runner. And even at 250+ karma, you are not talking about "superheroes" either... I suppose it all depends on how often your group plays and how long you would expect to play the same character, but I think you need to plot that out first, then see what the average karma per session or adventure should be. At four hours a session, usually completing a run 75% per session and playing weekly... 6 karma per run (on average) means that you have gained 78 karma in a year (or 52 sessions or 208 hours of game play). That just doesn't seem like a lot of karma to build your character up in a year's time... |
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Sep 20 2006, 10:54 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
How many BPs do you charge to initiate and make ally spirits?
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Sep 20 2006, 11:33 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
The same as karma costs, I would think. Skills really are too expensive, but I don't think anyone but Emo Samurai would seriously say that what SR4 really needs is an easy way to become a high grade initiate with a Force 6 ally.
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Sep 21 2006, 07:04 AM
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#14
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,986 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Oh? I havn't really looked at Serbitar's system in detail, but that sounds like it's much more complex than it needs to be... at least to do what you are looking for, apparantly Serbitar is looking for some additional things in there. ;) As I said, it's incredibly simple. Just use the costs to increase skills, attributes, and so on with Karma from the book, and you are almost set. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 21 2006, 08:28 AM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Note, that in my system, racial bonuses are not taken into account when raising attibutes. So the highest ammount you will ever have to pay (if you have an exceptional attribute) is raising an attribute from 6 to 7 which is 35 karma (which SHOULD be a considerable step). My system is using the standard SR4 karma rewards, which are about 2-4 karma per 5 hour evening. I did a lot of math and simulations and everything works out as expected. Of course, attributes will not change as much as in RAW but, that whas the goal (and starting characters are a little better than RAW ones to compensate). I would suggest to try and build some characters with the excel sheet and see whether if fits your needs. |
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Sep 21 2006, 09:10 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I spent some time today hammering out something that might work for my own gaming needs, did a little character progression plotting, ran into some problems, corrected them, so on, and so forth -- After a good portion of the day, I came back to review your system, Serbitar, and I found to my delight that there were some serious similiar aims and numbers popping up. Given that I believe you've looked into the matter much more heavily than I, I shaved and padded a bit to give this system a better fit with yours. So, as it stands, I -really- appreciate all of the work you put together with your system. And you too, Frank - You've got some good stuff floating around in there. I ended up going w/ a progessively more expensive raise system, just because the game environment won't give me quite the degree of policing that I'd have at a standard tabletop game. Letting the diminishing returns police skill/attribute raises will be easier than me explaining to players why they can't just raise their Automatics skill to 20, and blow everything else off. So. I really appreciate the work you guys put in - It helped me blend the parts I liked out of your approaches, and mesh it together here. If anyone would like to pick apart this system and show me if there are any glaring oversights, I'd really appreciate it. Feel free to completely wreak havoc, if necessary. And constructive feedback is always welcome. Thanks! ----------------------- Chargen Rules - Characters are based on 500 NBP (New Build Points), and may spend up to 250 NBPs on attributes, and may divide the remaining NBPs between special attributes, skills, resources, contacts, lifestyle, Qualities, and may also purchase a metahuman race. A character can start with a maximum of =Y=252,000 worth of resources.Character's are limited to 3 of each negative and qualities. Once game play begins, awarded karma may purchase character improvements at a 1:1 karma/NBP ratio. Special Attribute Edge: Edge is accumulated at a rate coinciding with a Character's total received Karma. The first point is received at 20 karma, the second at 50 karma, the third at 90 karma, and so on: Character's start with a number of knowledge skills equal to the sum of their Logic + Intuition, multiplied by 10. Edge Pool 1 - 20 2 - 50 3 - 90 4 - 140 5 - 200 6 - 270 7 - 350 8 - 440 9 - 540 No changes have been made to a bonus provided by racial choice, excepting that Human's may start with 4 positive qualities. Skill groups have been removed. All skills are raised individually instead. Optionally, GM's who enforce training rolls may allow players to expend one lump sum of karma equal to the sum of raising all skills inside a Skill Group by one, allowing a player to make one training roll for the entire lot, using his highest applicable dicepool. --->Exceptional Attribute - 10 NBP - Each time an attribute is bought at a rating of 6, or higher, it must be accompanied by an Exceptional Attribute Quality. This quality may be purchased multiple times, and each time it is purchased, it allows an attribute to be raised to a higher level than previously allowed, through an expenditure of karma, normal. It must be purchased seperately for each attribute, and each instance must either apply to allowing a new attribute to be increased to 6, or apply to raising the cap on one of the character's pre-existing Exceptional Attributes. This quality is not exempt from the total number of qualities available during character generation. ---->Apptitude - 5 NBP - Each time a skill, active or knowledge, is bought at a rating of 6, or higher, it must be accompanied by an Apptitude Quality. This quality may be purchased multiple times, and each time it is purchased, it allows a skill to be raised to a higher level than previously allowed, through an expenditure of karma, as normal. It must be purchased seperately for each skill, and each instance must either apply to allowing a new skill to be increased to 6, or apply to raising the cap on one of the character's pre-existing Apptitude skills. This quality is not exempt from the total number of qualities available during character generation. Left column is cost to raise incrementially, while the right column is the cumulative cost. To better round out character's, and facilitate metahuman's, attributes begin at rating 2. Lowering an attribute to 1 earns a character +10 NBPs which may be applied to other attributes, exceeding the 250NBP cap. :::Attributes::: 1:+10 CC:+10 2:- CC:0 3:15 CC:15 4:20 CC:35 5:25 CC:60 6:30 CC:90 7:35 CC:135 8:40 CC:175 9:45 CC:220 :Active Skills: 1:2 CC:2 2:4 CC:6 3:6 CC:12 4:8 CC:20 5:10 CC:30 6:12 CC:42 7:14 CC:56 8:16 CC:72 9:18 CC:90 :Knowledge: 1:1 CC:1 2:2 CC:3 3:3 CC:6 4:4 CC:10 5:5 CC:15 6:6 CC:21 7:7 CC:28 8:8 CC:36 9:9 CC:45 :::Magic/Resonance:::: 1:- CC:- 2:6 CC:6 3:9 CC:15 4:12 CC:27 5:15 CC:42 6:18 CC:60 7:21 CC:81 8:24 CC:105 9:27 CC:132 ::OTHER:: -Resources: 4K per 1 NBP -Lifestyle: Unchanged/3 Months must be bought during character generation. -Contacts: Rating x Loyalty -Active Spec: 6 NBP -Knowledge Spec: 3 NBP -Spells: 4BP ::Race Cost Table:: Ork: 30 Dwarf: 30 Elf: 45 Troll: 45 Skill/Attribute Caps have been removed, and instead policed by diminishing karmic returns. EDIT: Correct Knowledge Skill cost corrected - Ratings 7,8, and 9 were 1 NBP too cheap. |
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Sep 21 2006, 09:54 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
What about racial modifiers?
Are they applied after or before calculating costs? |
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Sep 21 2006, 10:16 PM
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#18
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,986 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
You must be kidding there. :D Bye Thanee |
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Sep 22 2006, 04:57 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
All attributes begin at 2. If one is lowered to 1, +10NBP for attributes is generated. If it later is bought back up, that 10NBP must be payed off, which brings it back to 2. Racial modifiers are added after attribute generation. Attribute Raises are at base attribute, ignoring Racial/Magic/Bioware/Cyberware bonus. The only unfortunately part of this is that it means that Trolls must automatically buy Charisma up to -at least- 3, spending 15NBP of their NBP Attribute Total. I toyed about deducting a portion of that straight from their racial modifier cost. Meanwhile, elves have no negative attributes, and are, unfortunately, prime for mix/maxing. So they maintain the same XP cost as Trolls. Am I overlooking anything?
Would you care to constructively demonstrate why they should be cheaper? |
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Sep 22 2006, 05:08 AM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Why would they have to do that? Trolls don't have a Charisma penalty, they have a reduced Charisma maximum. -Frank |
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Sep 22 2006, 05:18 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
As it is currently implimented, there are no maximum attributes. Maximums are instead maintained by diminishing karmic returns. SR4 standard reduction or raises of metahuman maximum attributes are instead applied directly to attributes.
Example: An Ork gains a +3 bonus to Body. As all attribute begin at 2, an Ork can reduce his 2 to a 1, and gain +10NBP to be used elsewhere, and begin with an effective body score of 4, which can later be raised as if it were currently at 1. Alternately, it could buy Body at to 5 (Or higher, for more NBP) for 90NBP, which would raise his Body Attribute to 8. Body is still improved as if it were rating 5, however. Meanwhile, an ork gains a -1 to Charisma. Since attributes begin at 2, effectively, an Ork begins with a Charisma rating of 1 that must be raised as if it were actually 2. -System problem- Because the baseline attribute begins at 2, and a troll receives a -2 to Charisma, that means that they would effectively start with a Charisma Attribute of 0. Instead, Troll Charisma it automatically bought up to 3, for 15NBP applied against their racial total. If it is not further raised, Charisma 3 (-2) is reduced to 1, though attribute raises for Charisma still costs the amount of karma normal for a 3-->4 raise. |
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Sep 22 2006, 06:32 AM
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#22
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,986 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I'm more speaking of Troll and Elf on one level... Troll is already too cheap with the original 40 BP and this seems to be less than that. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 22 2006, 06:52 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
To be honest, I thought Troll might have been a little too expensive, considering that Metahuman penalties are currently drafted up to be taken as direct penalties to attributes.
Could you explain what a more appropriate cost would be, and why it should be changed? |
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Sep 22 2006, 07:25 AM
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#24
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,986 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Ok, I had not seen that you made the attribute penalties worse.
Have you also figured in the reach and dermal armor and so on? Bye Thanee |
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Sep 22 2006, 08:06 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I roughly eyeballed it, given that I wasn't entirely comfortable with the forumla I created, but leveled it out to be roughly equal with Elves after taking the additional Reach, Armor, and Natural Thermographic vision in account against the heavy penalties Trolls take.
If you have some alternatives, I'm definitely open to them, though. I'm definitely interested in balancing Metatype costs out. That's the one part of this whole model that I feel least comfortable with. On one hand, Trolls are powerful, but on the other, they take some heavy attribute penalties. Meanwhile, Elves have no attribute negatives, which means they appear to be a hands down easy buy, pound for pound. Orks and Dwarves could still use some tinkering, too. |
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