 Linear BP/Karma relation, Using BPs instead of Karma |
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 Sep 22 2006, 08:48 AM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
This is not a bad thing.
THIS is the bad thing. Ive never liked this and think it is a big mistake. Trolls should be less intelligent/have lower charisma on average and not only have a lowered max. |
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Sep 22 2006, 09:21 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Right. So - How's the modifications to your system look like it'll play out, Serbitar? Playable? Any serious problems? Anything I'm overlooking? |
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Sep 22 2006, 03:51 PM
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#28
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
If Trolls have a lower maximum, they do have a lower average. The Average is the combined values of all Trolls divided bythe number of Trolls. If you replace the Trolls that would have 5s and 6s in an attribute with numbers betwen 1 and 4, the average is lower. The minimum is 1 regardless, so the reductions in attributes below 1 that then have to be bought up to 1 are just an accounting gimick. That doesn't actually mean anything. And that's why I've never been with you on the whole Karma for Chargen thing. I acknowledge that it works, but the kinds of contortions you are putting yourself through are to my mind unacceptable. Having characters start with negative attributes that they mandatorily purchase up to positive values is something that 4th edition did away with and that was good.
No it isn't. Trolls get a lot of bonus attributes, but those bonus attributes are Strength andd Body. And those attributes suck ass. Sorry folks, the real weapons in Shadowrun are guns (agility), spells (magic), and computer detonated explosives (Logic). Swords and axes kind of blow evenn if you are crazy strong. Body and Strength are both weak sister attributes and they probably should have been combined into one. The Troll's extra reach almost makes up for his reduced Agility maximum, and his Dermal Armor in no way makes up for his increased size and noticeability. This is a game about getting away with crime, being a human or an ork is awesome, being a dwarf or troll is pretty dangrous. Trolls are weak at 40 BP. They get a lot of attribue points, but it isn't like they are getting real attributes like Agility or Charisma. -Frank |
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Sep 22 2006, 04:07 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
OK, let me correct: I want the average troll to be more stupid than the average human. According to the BP system of RAW, both, the average human, and the average Troll pay 30 BP for an intelligence or charisma of 3, and are thus equally intelligent/charsimatic. I do not want that (not at all), by design desicion and my system nicely corrects this. @Steak: Still checking |
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Sep 22 2006, 04:13 PM
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#30
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. The Human pays 20 BP for an Intuition or Charisma of 3. The Troll pays 40 BP for being a Troll and another 20 BP for a Charisma of 3. Since the "bystander" in Shadowrun only seems to have about 120 BP to throw around for stats, that 40 BP is going to hit the bystander Troll somewhere important. Maybe he can make it up by dumping a bunch of mental stats. Maybe by throwing skills overboard. The pint is, points all come out of the same pool. If you have less points and your maximums are lower, your average is less. By a pretty immediately obviously large amount actually. -Frank |
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Sep 22 2006, 04:34 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,107 |
Then why mess with the system at all? The BP system isn't there to make 'average' people, it's there to make PC's and notable NPC's which by definition are supposed to be a cut above. The BP system doesn't need to work to make the clerk at the local stuffer shack, unless he also runs around at night beating up muggers with a bat on his chest. :) |
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Sep 22 2006, 04:44 PM
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#32
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That was the very same with BeCKS. |
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 Sep 22 2006, 05:03 PM
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#33
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,742 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I also did it that way in my own house rules back then, and I like it better that way.
The absolute value is what you pay for in the end, because that is what has a direct effect on the game. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 22 2006, 07:21 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Yep. That's why I don't feel entirely comfortable with charging so much for Trolls. |
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Sep 22 2006, 07:23 PM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
That is the point. The 40 BP payed for being a troll have nothing to do with charisma or intelligence. They can be taken from anything. These 40 BP only mean, that the Troll is somewhere worse than the human. But I explicitly want trolls to be dumber and less charismatic than humans, thats why I am directly reducing these stats. Furthermore I want the game mechanics to reflect the distribution I want to end up with. By subtracting/adding the race mods from the inital "human" average distribution, I get exactly what I want. Especially, I can say what the distribution for a metareace is, whithout doing BP math (as BPs do not really exist in the real world and actually it is a very bad idea to base any world models on BP or Karma, maybe except in the case where you are comparing attribute costs with attribute costs or skill costs with skill costs). Bsides, with my 5xAttribute Karma, Trolls would not be payable if I did not add the modifers after creation. With a normalKarma system, a Troll has to pay more than a human to get his "average" strength. Something I also do not like. All in all, trolls in my system are cheaper than in a Karma system with modifiers before creation. I do not want to defend my system, I just want to say that it is doing exactly what I want. I put quite some time into it, and if you do not like it, more power to you, but you should know that I am aware of most of the stuff going on there, and chances are good that I put a certain mechanic there because it produces exactly the results I want it to prodouce. @ Rotbart: So what? |
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Sep 22 2006, 07:35 PM
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#36
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
This sentence no verb. If you are reducing their stats below one, and then forcing them to buy it back up to 1, you aren't reducing their stats. You're just charging them more points. The points to raise the attribute "back up to one" comes out of the general pool. All you're really doing is making the cost of being a Troll deceptive. The "true cost" includes purchasing the attributes hat you are dropping, while the "apparent cost" is just the price tag you put on the Troll itself. The Troll is still going to have a minimum of 1 and a maximum of 4. All Player Character Trolls will fall somewhere in that range, and NPCs will have whatever stats you say that they have. You haven't made any real changes. You've just put some of the costs of column A into column B so that they are harder to find. -Frank |
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Sep 22 2006, 07:38 PM
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#37
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,742 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Yep, Frank certainly has a point there. ;)
Bye Thanee |
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Sep 22 2006, 07:44 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Of course I am charging them more points (even for a value of 1, but only a small almost negligible ammount, due to the linearly increasing costs ). That is the only way in a point based system to discourage people from raising a stat (and explicitly that stat compared to others, not everything in general), or raise it less. That is exactly the intention.
I still think that is the natural way to do it . . . Of course everybody is free to think otherwise. PS: Sorry, I am not a native speaker. Where is a verb missing? Edit: Btw, the "average" human (everything at 3) and the "average" troll (everything at 3 + mods) cost exactly the same in my system (plus metarace costs of course). And this should be the baseline. That is what makes the system very elegant, intuitive and easy to judge. At least ifrom my point of view. |
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Sep 22 2006, 08:55 PM
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#39
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sorry about that. The sentence "This sentence no verb." actually has no verb. It's technically not a valid English sentence and doesn't literally mean anything. The implication is that it contains the word "has" and thus is a statement about its own lack of a verb (which would make the statement true so long as it continued to not be a valid statement). It's a classic English phrase meaning that something is missing from a logical argument causing it to be meaningless. The fact that the statement is true only so long as it isn't a fully formed statement is a reference to the failure of the statement that it is used in reference to to convey its intended intent or properly persuade its audience. Roughly translated it means "Ich glaube, der nicht zutreffend ist." and is predicated on the required phrase structure of well-formed English sentences. I apologize for using a statement that barroque on a multi-lingual forum, that sort of thing just comes out from time to time. --- Anyway, I believe that the point still stands. Player Characters aren't avrage. Average people have stats in the 2-3 range and are not bought with points anyhow. Telling your players that they must purchase a stat in the 3-6 range and then reducing their stats by two is more complicated, and not otherwise different, than simply giving them less points and asking themm to buy a stat in the 1-4 range. -Frank |
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Sep 22 2006, 09:23 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Metahumans v1.2
----------- Ork - NBP: BOD:+3, STR:+2, CHA: -1, LOG: -1 Dwarf-NBP: BOD:+1, STR:+2, WIL:+2, REA: -1 Elf - NBP: AGI:+1, CHA:+2 Troll-NBP: BOD:+4, STR:+4, AGI: -1, CHA: -2, INT: -1, LOG: -1 After spending more time on the problem, I've come with what I believe is a feasible solution. All races have their starting statistics displayed. The first number is the actual number that is used whenever the attribute is referenced for a roll. The number in ()'s is the number that is used when calculating the cost for raising/Lowering attributes. Obviously, neither number can be reduced below 1. Review the chart below. ------ -Human- All attributes are 2(2). -Ork- Bod: 5(2) Str: 4(2) Cha: 2(3) Log: 2(3) -Dwarf- Bod: 3(2) Str: 4(2) Wil: 4(2) Rea: 2(3) -Elf- Agi: 3(2) Cha: 4(2) -Troll- Bod: 6(2) Str: 4(2) Agi: 2(3) Cha: 2(4) Int: 2(3) Log: 2(3) ------ Notice how bonus dice are all applied flatly to the base attribute, and meanwhile can be raised for lowered karma costs. For instance, an ork starts out with Body 5. If he would like to raise 5-->6, he will pay 15 NBP as he's effectively paying for the raise from 2-->3. Likewise, raising from 6-->7 costs 20 NBP ontop of that 15NBP, as it's being raised from 3-->4. Now, also note how an Ork has a Charisma score of 2(3). His starting charisma will be 2. If he would like to raise his charisma from 2-->3, he'll pay 20NBP, as this is the cost of raising 3-->4. If he wanted to raise his Charisma from 3-->4, and then 4-->5, he would first pay 25NBP for the raise to 4 from 3, and then pay 30NBP for the raise from 4--> 5. However, since that would make the attribute effectively 5(6) he will also need to attache the 'Exceptional Attribute' Quality to that attribute, spending another 10NBP. Now. Let's take a Troll. His Body begins at 6(2). For 15 NBP, he's up at 7(3). For a total of 90 NBP, he's at 10(6), with another 10NBP spent for his 'exceptional attribute'. What happens if he wants to lower his charisma from 2-->1? That's effectively changing 4-->3 which refunds a difference of 20NBP for his personal spending pleasure. ------------------- Current racial prices still undetermined. New format applied for simplicity. |
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Sep 22 2006, 09:41 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
So...you're effectively turning "races" into "classes" by pre-emptively determining which stats cost however many times more than others, while simultaneously increasing the non-human/non-elf racial costs by at least 10 for a dwarf, all the way to at least 60 for a troll.
Expect noone to play anything but a human or an elf - unless they want to play an utterly brainless "Thog SMASH!!!" style troll. |
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Sep 22 2006, 10:29 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Not at all. Because Attribute/Skill caps have been removed, Metahumans no longer have caps on attributes that would ordinarily be capped for them. Instead, they pay more to raise some, and pay less to raise others. For instance. An Ork pays the same karma cost to raise body from 5-->6, as a human pays to raise from 2-->3. Likewise, an Ork pays the same to raise charisma from 2-->3 as a human pays to raise from 3-->4. |
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Sep 22 2006, 10:48 PM
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#43
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
But since the amount of points you have to spend is at any point fixed, this actually shoehorms a Metahuman much more than the normal rules could hope to. An Elf isn't going to be "about 1 die better" at shooting, he's going to be evolutionarily ahead of anyone else. He's paying less to improve himself in Agility than other people, his relative advantage as a shooter increases over time. And since you're charging people just to get starting values, you have increased the costs of being a non-elf metahuman. That you have also committed such characters to pay more on top of that if they want to be any good at all at a task that is uncharacteristic of their metatype means that you are kicking them twice. A Troll Street Sam, for instance, is paying th Troll costs, and he's paying extra to raise his Agility, and he's being forced to buy the standard Agility for more points. These sorts of systems really punish characters who play against type. And that's boring. -Frank |
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Sep 22 2006, 10:53 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Show me some numbers, Frank. I'm hearing the rhetoric, but I'd like to see some math inside of the system that proves that it's broken. That would really help me. :)
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Sep 23 2006, 08:16 AM
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#45
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,742 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Hmm... back then, I identified this as a general problem. If you apply modifiers after attribute increases, the value of the modifier increases with every increase of the attribute, which leads to minmaxing. Something you want to counteract with the new system in the first place. It's a different incentive than the linear vs non-linear costs, but it's nonetheless a strong incentive as well. It's not as bad as in previous editions, where it only applied during character generation, and afterwards the costs to increase the modified attribute suddenly skyrocketed, but it's still there. That's why I had decided to apply racial modifiers first, just like SR4 does it now as well, give them a head start with the bonuses (or boni for the latin-speakers) and simply cap the maximum with the penalties. All in all, at least I think so, an orc and a human with equal attributes should cost roughly the same. Bye Thanee |
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Sep 23 2006, 12:52 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Ugh. Incorporating Metahumans into this system is turning into a headache.
Increasing costs per attribute raise, mixing with a flat addition/subtraction bonus, like Thanee said, is introducing another problem into the system. If all races could somehow be balanced so that it was just a matter of personal preference, rather than a Build Point expenditure, I think the system would click. |
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