Deep thoughts on RPG experience-advancement, Real life, statistics, and risk Options

[Wounded Ronin]

The first Shadowrun GM I ever had was a brutal killer GM. I was rolling up new characters nearly every session. Nevertheless, playing with him was one of the most memorable RPG experiences I ever had. Recently, I remembered one of the comments he made about SR: "One flaw with Shadowrun is that you can take Resources A in character generation and use it to buy a permanent high lifestyle and win the game without playing."

Of course, my immediate thought was that the point of sitting down to do SR was to play SR, so I said something to the effect of, "What if I have a perfectionist samurai type character who risks his life for the abstract goal of making his art of shadowrunning as refined and perfect as is humanly possible?"

Looking back on this conversation I realize today that it exemplifies one of the strangest aspects of many RPGs which center around combat and which allow for character advancement, including SR but also including such classics as any edition of D&D. A big idea in these game systems is that by participating in countless conflicts and racking up superhuman kill counts in the thousands over the course of a long career a character will become tough, experienced, and resolute, and will get a huge karma pool or become level 36 and in so doing experience an overall elevation far beyond what most human beings experience in their lifetime. I remember how in the old D&D rules cyclopedia that if you wanted to hire a marshall to train your castle garrison he was supposed to be a retired 5th level fighter whereas if you owned a castle your adventurer was at least level 9 and somehow managed to be better in every way than any experienced soldier you could hire under the game's employment engine.

In real life, though, I don't think that that paradigm really works. Every time you enter a lethal combat situation there's a certain chance you'll either be killed or injured so badly that you won't be able to fight again either ever or for a long time; being strategic hardcore SR players we can abstract this as a certain % chance each time we fight if we like. So it dosen't seem like it would really make sense if what you seek is robust health, catlike reflexes, and superior aim, to keep entering combat situations in order to practice these things. As long as your survive I could accept the idea of your physical body improving, but the moment you get shot and injured that's going to be a huge setback in all these categories. It would make more sense to play a sport than to get into a lot of firefights, if you think about it that way.

Next, there's the mental and psychological issue. I think something like 1/4 of combat vets get diagnosed with PTSD? So, even if your character is lucky and is never actually injured in combat, there's at least a 25% chance that he's eventually going to get mentally wounded. Just another thing that waits by the roadside to waylay your journey down the road to ubermenschitude.

Empirically, you always hear about a few people who have been in countless battles are are really formidable people. On DSF I've read, more than once, about the fat 40 year old guys who can do everything better than you. But the question is, how much better are they really than me? If we were to quantify their reaction time, how much better would it be than mine, for example. No doubt it is better, but does it really get dramatic as, say, the difference between a level 0 fighter (me) and a level 36 fighter (them) in D&D? Would it equal the difference between me having 1 karma dice and Pistols 2 versus their 20 karma dice and Pistols 7?

This is relevant not only to reality nitpicking, but also to character development and role playing. Besides for the Miyamoto Musashi archetype who is obsessed with becoming the most refined killing machine on the face of the planet, how many characters really really would continue in their careers as shadowrunners a moment longer than they need to? Any reasonably intelligent runner, even a competent one, would surely recognize the risks (even if the risks, statistically, do not exist behind the scenes of the game, since this would be a matter of role playing in a believable manner) and would drop the profession like a lumberjack's penis as soon as he or she were able to buy a permanent Middle lifestlye? Surely, it's a little bit meta gaming for a character to have a long career in the shadows after the character has enough money for the permanent lifestlye, since the character is now acting not in his or her best interest but rather in the interest of what you the player know in terms of issues that exist outside the game?

[Pendaric]

For a realism point of view it is rather the difficulty of leaving a life style that has coursed s o many agencies and enemies to wish harm to said ex runner. Leaving the shadows and stop playing the game does not mean all those enemies do.
Then there is actually getting the cash and a SIN good enough that your life doesn't fall to pieces on one good security check.
Finally the change of pace from running to peaceful life is a massive strain in and of itself. What do they do that compares? As you stated they are combat vets how do they adjust to normal life.
Mushashi for example was using the warriors path to become enlightened, fully developing as a human being. A tall order that requires discipline but all so much more.
By applying the level of realism you have already shown to the reverse of the problem, I hope you agree there are realistic argument to continue.

As to the stats well there the best abstract repesentation of experience and professionalism.

[Kagetenshi]

Shadowrun does not give karma in return for combat. FastJack, if we are to believe his persona, has very possibly never entered personal combat in his life.

Basically, I reject your premise.

As for the permanent-middle-lifestyle idea, the problem with that is that for every well-designed standard-power-level character, there must be a reason why they cannot or will not live in normal society. I have yet to see a well-designed character that could not make a Middle lifestyle minimum out of the Shadows, and most of the not-quite-so-well-designed ones could make a Low easily. If we are to turn this into a sensible world, there must be something—criminal record, thrill-seeking, disproportionate greed, unwillingness, any of a thousand reasons—driving the Shadowrunner to keep Shadowrunning. Therefore, it's hardly strange that no Runner worth the name gives up after they could buy a permanent Middle lifestyle.

~J

[Wounded Ronin]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Kagetenshi]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Kagetenshi]

I said "rose to". If there were a champion boxer in 1985, who continued fighting at champion-level through 2005 and was still winning the vast majority of his fights, would you bet against him in 2006?

~J

[Wounded Ronin]

[Kagetenshi]

I think we're getting mired here, so I'll put this another way:

I have never encountered a player who has declared, whether or not in so many words, "I want a higher [stat/skill/whatever], I'm going to walk into the Barrens with a shotgun", nor have I played under a GM who would, in the absence of some additional action or "hook", award any meaningful quantity of karma for that. As such, I reject the assertion of Shadowrun possessing a fight -> level paradigm, and furthermore reject the claim that challenge -> level is equivalent to fight -> level.

~J

[Lagomorph]

Thanks WR for the insightful thread.

I think that the thrill factor is a big portion of why a shadowrunner keeps going. Kind of a thrill of the hunt, and humans as the most dangerous prey, thing.

Either that or it's the rock star phenomenon, get bunch of cash, spend cash foolishly on toys, women, drugs and booze, wake up (hung over) and find out you're flat broke again, and go on tour (or a shadowrun).

I think they keep going on shadowruns because they don't have the skills that would allow them to work a job, and who'd hire a sinless anyway?

And a retired shadowrunner is never really retired, just taking an extended vacation, there's always something that'll cause them to pick up the sword again, even if it's just self defense.

[hyzmarca]

There is also more than a little hero-worship in these circles. Consider that real crackers who haven't touched a keyboard in 20 years due to the conditions of their parole still command an aura of baddass among people who follow such things.

It doesn't matter what Fastjack has done recently because his accomplishments in the past are enough to support a very large baddass aura, especially when combined with his current efforts in the community and his general mysteriousness. Even if he hasn't done any major runs lately he still puts its icon out there for people to see. He stays fresh on everyone's minds. He is as much a brand as a person. And good branding trumps actual ability every time.


Of course, this really matters not in the advancement paradigm. RPG experience systems are foolish. All of them are, without exception. When the goody-two-shoes high-school valedictorian has to garrote deadbeat debtors to death for the local organized crime outfit so that she can learn how to integrate multi-variable functions in time for the AP calculus final there are some problems. There are even larger realism problems if you want to be a 15th level English Major in CoC D20.

This is because most RPGs are action/adventure oriented. You get rewards for doing things that are violent and/or adventurous. Combine this with an abstract system and it is necessary for the players to seriously suspend disbelief. Why should stabbing kobolds make me less likely to die when shot? Obviously, it shouldn't, but this is as accurate as you are going to get.
SR is slightly better since it allows karma rewards for noncombat accomplishments, focusing on rewarding entire 'adventures.' Still a system that prevents people who don't regularly dedicate a lot of their time to adventure from writing a kickass research paper and allowing people who do adventure to do so even when the adventure was in no way related to the research paper is certainly odd.

Perhaps someone should create an academic focused RPG in which people are able to lift more weight because they solved an exceptionally difficult math problem.



As for retirement, I suspect that most PCs would happily retire. However, many would not. Many choose to be Shadowrunners because they want that life, just like many choose to be career military. Likewise, some Shadowrunners simply shouldn't know how to begin to retire. It is one thing to have that dream. It is quite an other to change the routine that has sustained you for years.

[Kagetenshi]

[hyzmarca]

[Dog]

I agree that what constitutes "advancement," "improvement," and "success," is only limited by the players' perspective. If a player wanted to play a hardcore Taoist, (Is there such a thing?) and avoid confrontation and complication, I suppose that he should get karma for spending the day watching leaves in the wind. Just wouldn't be terribly interesting to me....

Likewise, whatever that guy spent karma on would probably seem like a waste compared to a more standard character, but there are still zillions of possibilities.

I like the karma system a lot because it's so arbitrary.

[ShadowDragon]

I'd be more inclined to award karma for avoiding fights than winning them. I try to make every conflict possible to talk your way out of and/or evade - and I'm more impressed when my players do this than when they plow through with an Ares Alpha.

I think your idea applies more to DnD than Shadowrun.

[hyzmarca]

[Dog]

I'm going to argue spirit of the law versus letter of the law here. What constitutes an adventure? I'd say that it depends on what the the GM and players have agreed would be fun.

I also think that the paragraph cited refers specifically to shadowrunners. If you're not a shadowrunner, it would be easy to say you may obtain karma by helping sick people to survive, passing a big test, setting up a small business and things like that.

My point being that the rules were only designed to cover the scope of Shadowrun-ish scenarios. Why feel the necessity to apply them to everybody?

But I don't want to argue, I just don't get where you're going with this, Hyz. Are you trying to point out the limitations of the game? (I agree with you.) Are you critiquing the game based on those limitations? (Fair enough, you're not wrong.) Are you saying that GMs should not allow advancement for accomplishments that game designers were anticipating? In that case I have to wonder: If all players, including the GM, enjoyed the gaming session, and the player characters met a reasonble challenge and succeeded against it, is it not an adventure?

Or to be more direct, I disagree with your interpretation of what is an adventure. I also think that your comment about what "must" be done is limited. I also think that your examples of what counts as dangerous are more limited. Is putting your career at stake to go for the big promotion not dangerous? Is moving to a new city to get over a divorce not something of an adventure? Is investing your life savings in an education program with a 60% drop out rate not a risk? Where does it say you have to risk death or imprisonment?

Having said all that, for the purposes of running a decent Shadowrun game, I agree with you, I probably wouldn't award a player any karma for those things. I just think that if I want to, I can.

[nezumi]

I am under the impression that in Shadowrun karma is not awarded solely for killing things or going on adventures. Karma is awarded for facing and overcoming challenges. The world-reknown neurosurgeon with 10 in every related skill didn't get that way by killing ghouls out in the barrens (although that would explain why Dr. McNinja is just so cool). He got those skills by studying, overcoming challenges (exams and dissertations, operations, etc.) and constantly pushing himself.

As such, I have no problem with awarding a character karma for taking a college course (although presumably the karma gained from taking that course would have to be applied to increasing the related skill so he can pass those finals. This is one of the flaws of karma, karma is earned in the doing more than in the done, so in studying a course we'd have to ask if he gets the karma upon finishing the course work, but before the final, after the final, or in discrete increments over the course of the semester).

So that's my take on the situation. Karma doesn't require combat. Fastjack is awesome because he continues to test his skills, and not necessarily in matrix combat. A character can earn karma through non-adventure challenges. The only flaws with the system is sometimes when karma is awarded can be difficult to define, and karma earned through one method can be applied universally to unrelated skills and abilities.

As for the original question... I can't imagine why anyone would make a shadowrun character who would have no motive to get into the initial shadowrun. Past that, I'm just waiting for the day when my fixer can say "You know why people like you can't leave this business? Because you make too much money for people like me." Even though a runner is technically a free agent, he depends on people and people depend on him, and there will be buttons pressed to get the runner to do 'just one more job'. Running ain't the sorta biz you get outta easy, chummer. Unless you're counting in a body bag.

[emo samurai]

I award karma based more on good planning, adaptation, and funny. I think the BBB is vague enough that you could award karma for just about anything.

[James McMurray]

You're saying "rational human behavior" and "realism" in the same breath. That seems to be rarely the case. Some people (probably most of them) do what they do because it's what they want, they think they don't have a choice, or they think they can't do better. Rational thought only enters into it when someone from the outside presents a strong case for change, or events put the person in a position where they have no choice but to change.

As for tying experience to combat, that's not Shadowrun. Heck, it doesn't even have to be D&D if your DM can step outside of that mold and start presenting challenges instead of just critters to kill. Combat for advancement is definitely the easiest type of campaign to run, and most runs probably involve at least one fight, but you're not getting the karma because of the battle, but because of the overall experience.

[emo samurai]

Hell, I'd give you a lot more karma if you avoid fighting altogether.

[Dog]

[hyzmarca]

[Kagetenshi]

Taxes. Everyone pays for public school karma.

~J