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 Enhanced Aim + Dual Wielding Guns, What modifier applies? |
 Oct 24 2003, 01:32 AM
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#51
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123  |
It happens every time someone uses two simple actions to fire a weapon with SA or BF firing mode and misses the first shot. That happens all the time in my games. When that happens in your game, is the +2 modifier applied? Did it happen during your last game, or the game before? |
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Oct 24 2003, 01:49 AM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, in that case, the +2 for the manabolt also only applies if the guy doesn't move after you cast it. personally, i don't see the modifier ever applying in combat, because combat is too inherently chaotic for there to be situations static enough for it to apply.
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Oct 24 2003, 01:54 AM
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#53
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
No, because your second shot has recoil. Totally different situation. :P |
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Oct 24 2003, 06:12 AM
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#54
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
It hasn't happened recently, because it's rare that the opponent won't try and dodge the first shot at all. If he dodges, then the situation has changed. What you're describing is when a PC shoots at a target, who succesfully dodges; but since he's moved a bit, the PC now corrects for the way the target moves and fires again. I'd wager the characters would consider the first shot a kind-of feint, and the second as a kill shot. If you somehow managed to score zero successes, and the guy doesn't dodge, drop prone, or otherwise go for cover, I'd apply the +2 but add an additional -2 as a stupidity modifier on the target's part. However, it's not really likely that you'll shoot at a guy and get zero successes, unless you completely botch, by rolling all ones. And if you botch, applying a +2 to the next shot is being generous. |
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Oct 24 2003, 07:04 AM
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#55
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
It seems to me that you've never actually implemented this +2 "frustration penalty" for missing a shot.
Which, IMO, is a good thing :) |
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Oct 24 2003, 08:55 AM
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#56
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
So.... did anyone find this reference in the books about the +2TN since it's still being suggested for other facets? Or is the +2TN just a House Rule for Cain and BitB? Sphynx |
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Oct 24 2003, 10:37 AM
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#57
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It is in the books as a canon rule. No quote though, as I am away from my books at the moment.
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Oct 24 2003, 10:51 AM
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#58
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Then may I request with due respect that you provide it, once you have access to your books again ? ... |
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Oct 24 2003, 01:05 PM
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#59
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I scoured the BBB for a mention of a frustration modifier, and didn't find one. The Assensing modifier isn't even mentioned as being due to frustration (realisticly, I believe it's more of a "gradually learn more" type thing than a retry penalty...).
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Oct 24 2003, 04:50 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
He actually used to say 'cor lumme DM' way more. So i'm a hopeless dangermouse fan. I can't help it. The episode with the Pink Hole and the Custard Imp just won me over when I was little, what can I say... Anyway. The topic at hand. My thoughts. Agree with them or not, I just try to be sensible, not a rules lawyer, so sorry if I'm not as good at this as some of you! The +2 rule was certainly in effect in SR2. I generally apply it in SR3 although i dont' know if its an official rule. I expect it is because it made sense to me. But I don't apply it where someone misses, unless the target is stationery and incapable of reacting. Why? Because as soon as they've reacted in *any* way the situation has changed and its a new test. Eg, they jump out of the way, or dodge. They are no longer in the same place/position etc as they once were so the shot is different. With magic its the same - if its a combat spell you are attuning with someone's aura at the instant of casting and auras change ALL the time because thoughts, emotions etc change. Therefore even a split second later it is a slightly different aural alignment. Not different enough to change the over all pattern which is what a ritual spell or something like that works on, but enough to change the instant on the fly skill tests which relate - when you assense someone, you dont' continue to know their state of mind as you look at them, you know during the period you assense them only. If its a damaging manipulation spell then see firearms - has the target moved, ducked - has the caster moved or changed position? Yes? Then new skill test, modifier not required. The Enhance Aim spell - its detection which supposedly means it only works in a small radius. Well, yeeeees, if you want to limit your players that much. I suppose technically you're right. in fact, there's no supposing about it. You are. But I'd still be inclined to rule that its improving the natural ability of your hand detecting what you see and pointing in that direction, so therefore if you are holding the gun with the spell on you it just works, range not important. To my mind its allowing your hand to detect with greater accuracy the signals your brain is sending it and then guiding your hand better, just like a reflexes spell might improve how fast your brain interacts with the rest of you. Well, that's my fluff/flange reasoning anyway, which is obviously pure conjecture, and by that explanation it could well make a better Health Spell than detection. By canon it works as described, within a very limited area which makes shooting with it pointless unless its extended area effect. However, doing it the way I do it makes for less math-induced headaches. But you have to be careful that people don't abuse it with quickening, high force and massive target number reductions. I would keep it at half the force of the spell max reduction and if someone can actually cast a force 10 spell, have made the rolls to learn it in the first place (TN 20 remember), had the spare karma, metaplane quest notwithstanding, get the successes and THEN have the karma free to quicken or Anchor it, then I say let 'em. And the next time a bad guy mage runs into them, he'll spot the force 10 bonded item and go 'I don't care what that it is its POWERFUL and therefore has to go...' and the player finds his item gets attacked all the time. Not because I'm mean, but because if they didn't just run away in terror at the power of the thing that's how the NPCs would generally react, especially a trained one or another runner. Well, in my opinion, anyway. |
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Oct 24 2003, 04:57 PM
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#61
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I admit it's entirely possible that this rule was removed in 3rd, I know it was in 2nd and I am real nob about assuming t
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Oct 24 2003, 05:07 PM
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#62
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I admit it's entirely possible that this rule was removed in 3rd, I know it was in 2nd and I am real nob about assuming things like this :D
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Oct 24 2003, 05:09 PM
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#63
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
That's a cool way at looking at that rule Cain, and I like it. If I ever get the chance to run again I will be implamenting it. Thanks!
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Oct 24 2003, 05:18 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
I think tinkergnome is right. the +2 rule still exists, but only for specific things and it doesn't really represent frustration so much as overcoming perhaps a mental block you put in after that initial failure. Which I suppose is a kind of frustration...
I'll just shut up, shall I? |
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Oct 24 2003, 05:21 PM
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#65
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Really?!? that happens fairly often what with cover, darkness, glare, target movement, attacker movement, weather, recoil, wounds and so on target numbers are often high enough to warrant a miss.
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Oct 24 2003, 05:24 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Yeah, but then you got smartlinks or zoom vision, vision mods, enhanced articulation, heavy Barrel mods on the guns... it soon brings it back down again to a reasonable level, promise! |
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Oct 24 2003, 05:35 PM
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#67
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
And in those cases, the other guy is still likely to attempt a dodge. I mean, how often is your target completely motionless, *and* your TN is that high?
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Oct 24 2003, 09:04 PM
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#68
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
which aren't compatible with each other,
Vision mods help with the penalties but rarely eliminate them, and recoil is not too often an issue but comes up on bursts and full auto.
[in Bitty's World] A typical shot in most less than perfect secnarios in my games ends up being. minimal light, targets have 4-6 points of cover, players have 4-6 points of cover (for a +2, +3 for thir own shot) probably with rain, fog or smoke, but possibly indoors without any weather. Cover alone counting PC and Target that's +5 to +9 not even accounting for movement, atmosphere, recoil or lighting. With a smartlink at close range that's a TN of 7 to 11 or at medium range it's 8 to 12 before other modifiers, which are likely to throw an extra point or 2 at least on top of that. I don't see how any normal TN's can get less than 6 or so unless the PC wants to stand out in the open in a well lit room and get shot to death. badly. Maybe in ambush situations or playing russion roulette with the surprise rules and hoping to kill the targets... I dunno... It'd definitely be rare to see a TN under 6 IMHO. [/in Bitty's world] [edit] Any gunfight with no cover indoors in a well lit area is ruthlessly lethal in SR, and avoided like the plague by my players. There's just too good a chance their combat pool witll gut run out and they will take a trip to the street doc or the morgue. is this abnormal? its all right from the book. What do TN's look like in your games, with a brief breakdown of why. [/edit] |
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Oct 25 2003, 12:49 AM
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#69
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Sure, but you'll probably be waiting quite a while, considering that they are on the other side of the planet. Possibly BitBasher could find the quote in question. It was definitely a canon rule in Shadowrun, but may very well be that it was a rule in SR1 and 2, and was pulled from SR3 for some reason, although I can't imagine why this would be the case. |
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Oct 25 2003, 01:01 AM
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#70
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Your right there not, that's why he said or |
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Oct 25 2003, 04:06 AM
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#71
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Yes I know, I wasn't arguing, just reiterating. :D
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Oct 25 2003, 07:14 PM
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#72
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
I have more than enough time ... And so far nobody could provide that rule within the SR3 sources ..
Even if is was removed by coincidence that would mean that this rule is no longer canon under SR3. Would you agree? |
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Oct 25 2003, 11:40 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Shadow - thanks. that IS what I meant. I deliberately put the comma's in after that for a reason. Never mind, perhaps I should be more careful. Anyway, just because recoil mods aren't into play that often, doesn't mean they aren't a valid target number reducer. I obviously only meant you only use them when there's recoil to counter, but perhaps I shouldn't have included it - if all the recoil's countered then the modifier for recoil is 0 and doesn't reduce any of the others. Still, I find target numbers on sammies tend to average at around 4 or 5. sometimes its much lower, others higher (like called shot: barrel, which is a favorite, and generally spectacular depending on what the bad guy's holding...). However, having looked at the rules and modifiers again, I am again reminded what I let my players get away with. So I take it all back. In the new and improved Spotlite's world (which hopefully isn't too different from everyone elses now!): In rooms or corridors. range generally not greater than medium, usually short. So base Tn 4 for short range in this example. Unless the lights are off, its generally normal light. But lets say they are off. The ambient light (from street outside, low power emergency lights etc) provides minimal light, possibly partial light, but I doubt it. With cybered or normal low light that's +4 TN#. So TN#8 Runner freezes as Corp Goon comes round corner running, having picked them up on the cameras (let assume the team's incompetant), that's another +2. So TN#10 Runner has smartlink 2, and is for the sake of argument not surprised. He aims for a simple action though that means he only gets one shot. His gun has the heavy barrel mod. That's -4 in total. TN#6 If i worked it out properly that would be a final tgt# of six. If he aimed. I can't think of anything else which really reduces the number. And that means my sammies have been living it up. I tend only to start really applying all the mods if I want a fight to seem more lethal than normal. When you're used to tgt 4-6 and you suddenly get thrown into an area where you need to re-roll every six you ever get just to hit someone, the players really start getting twitchy! But I still don't think the aim spell is game breaky unless you let it be. If they can take the drain for a spell to give them -7 to hit and not sweat it, then your game is probably already broken! ;) ;) though I take the point about anchoring or quickening. Considering the stuff I let my players get away with though, I suspect low target numbers are the least of my worries... |
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Oct 25 2003, 11:46 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Also, with regard the idea of a F10 enhance aim spell - they have to get a formula, or design one themselves, no mean feat in either case, and learn it (needing 20 on the learning test), and then cast it/bond it/whatever and be able to use it anywhere without becoming an even more wanted criminal than they no doubt already are. You jander into a corp compound flashing that thing off, and don't kill all the mages onsite who might've seen it, and every security agency in the biz will have your description and vital statistics so fast it'll make your foci spin. Never mind what happens if you forget and wander round downtown with it. Active item over force 3? Highly illegal, chummer. Face the car and put your hands on the hood...
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Oct 26 2003, 02:13 AM
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#75
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
One thing there puzzles me. The mod is -3 not -4. The heavy barrel would cancel the point of recoil from the shot, but it isn't going to give a negative to the target number. No recoil mod lowers the target number, they just prevent recoil from raising the target number any. at best you end up with 0 recoil aded, at worse the target numbr goes up.
Also in your example in my game the sec guard that saw them on camera would definitely be taking cover at the corner he walked around, further adding 4 to that target number. Cover is always damn beneficial unless you know youre going to kill the target before he can go. |
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