no "moving target" modifiers in sr4?

no "moving target" modifiers in sr4?, where and why'd they go?

fourstring_samur... fourstring_samurai View Member Profile	Sep 22 2006, 01:53 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 189 Joined: 17-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,912	am i right to assume that in the newest incarnation of SR there aren't moving target modifiers? is there a reason for this?

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Sep 22 2006, 02:09 PM Post #2
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	The defender gets a bonus when running.

zeb.hillard View Member Profile	Sep 22 2006, 02:26 PM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-July 06 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 8,965	I ran with a very simple House Rule. If the defender is doing nothing but moving, the attacker loses 1 die to his firearms pool. If the defender is actually using the RUN action, the attacker loses 1 die, plus 1 additional for every hit the defender scored on the RUN check.

deek View Member Profile	Sep 22 2006, 02:33 PM Post #4
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814	If an attacker is in a moving vehicle they get a -3. I am also pretty sure that an attacker running get a -2. Yep, just looked it up... And yes, the defender gets a +2 if running. I don't think house rules are needed above this as it is quite clear...

kzt

Sep 22 2006, 06:21 PM

Post #5

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (deek)

If an attacker is in a moving vehicle they get a -3. I am also pretty sure that an attacker running get a -2. Yep, just looked it up...

And yes, the defender gets a +2 if running.

I don't think house rules are needed above this as it is quite clear...

The attacker running modifier is hugely too low. It's very difficult (I'd almost say nearly impossible) hit anything at a run even if the the target is only 10-15 meters away. You can shoot fairly accurately moving at a quick walk pace (once you learn how to do it), but shooting running is really hard. It's vastly easier to shoot a running target with you standing than to shoot a standing target when you are running.

zeb.hillard

Sep 22 2006, 07:08 PM

Post #6

Moving Target

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QUOTE (kzt)

The attacker running modifier is hugely too low. It's very difficult (I'd almost say nearly impossible) hit anything at a run even if the the target is only 10-15 meters away. You can shoot fairly accurately moving at a quick walk pace (once you learn how to do it), but shooting running is really hard. It's vastly easier to shoot a running target with you standing than to shoot a standing target when you are running.

That's why I decided to put the penalties on a sliding scale. It's far more difficult to hit someone who is running quickly than it is to his someone who is jogging. Just like it's more difficult to hit someone while you are running, as opposed to walking or jogging.

deek View Member Profile	Sep 22 2006, 07:23 PM Post #7
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814	I guess some people just need to put more reality into the game...I agree with what you are both saying, but until my players start whining about how the current modifiers aren't realistic enough for their tastes, I'm just going to leave it alone.

Slithery D

Sep 22 2006, 09:20 PM

Post #8

Moving Target

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QUOTE (kzt)

QUOTE (deek @ Sep 22 2006, 09:33 AM)

If an attacker is in a moving vehicle they get a -3. I am also pretty sure that an attacker running get a -2. Yep, just looked it up...

And yes, the defender gets a +2 if running.

I don't think house rules are needed above this as it is quite clear...

The attacker running modifier is hugely too low. It's very difficult (I'd almost say nearly impossible) hit anything at a run even if the the target is only 10-15 meters away. You can shoot fairly accurately moving at a quick walk pace (once you learn how to do it), but shooting running is really hard. It's vastly easier to shoot a running target with you standing than to shoot a standing target when you are running.

When determining this sort of thing you need to consider average dice pools. Does it make it enough more difficult for someone tossing 4-6 dice? If you put too high a penalty, average people with professional skill levels won't ever be able to do it. A beat cop should have 5-7 dice. Could someone like that hit a stationary target not trying to dodge (one hit) at short range more often than not when he's running? Then 2 dice is probably the right penalty.

Penalties are where the men really get separated from the boys at the high end of attribute/skill dice pools. 12 dice isn't much better than 10 until you get a 7 dice penalty.

kzt

Sep 22 2006, 10:07 PM

Post #9

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Slithery D)

When determining this sort of thing you need to consider average dice pools. Does it make it enough more difficult for someone tossing 4-6 dice? If you put too high a penalty, average people with professional skill levels won't ever be able to do it. A beat cop should have 5-7 dice. Could someone like that hit a stationary target not trying to dodge (one hit) at short range more often than not when he's running? Then 2 dice is probably the right penalty.

Penalties are where the men really get separated from the boys at the high end of attribute/skill dice pools. 12 dice isn't much better than 10 until you get a 7 dice penalty.

Some things are just too hard for anyone except experts. Typically shooting on the move is something that they don't even try to teach you until you are able to draw and shoot a target twice at 10 meters in two seconds reliably. And then they teach you to move at a very smooth walk where you maintain a stable shooting platform. Running you can't maintain that stable platform.

I would expect that someone with a total of 6 dice of skill equivalent could probably empty their gun at a stationary target and not reliably get a single hit while running at 5 meters. If they were stationary I'd expect that they would be able to hit a running target at 5 meters as often as they could in the target was 10-15 meters away.

Running you are shooting with one hand and you can't use the sights because they are bouncing around too much. So you are relying on aiming the gun in the general direction of the target and hoping for the best. (This is one place a smartgun link could be extremely useful, if the link could determine that the gun as aimed center of mass and fire it at the right moment.)

Shooting at a running target while stationary you just need to track the target and keep the gun moving with the target as you shoot. It is fairly easy if you have a reasonable level of marksmanship, as you can use both hands and the sights.

So I'd argue that your example of a -7 is the right area for the penalty for shooting while running, while the -2 for shooting at a running target is reasonable. (Assuming he's running across, as it's no problem to shoot at something running directly at you).

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