 Negative Quality: Aspected Magician, about spell Category/Spirit Aspect |
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 Sep 28 2006, 06:36 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081  |
Do I pick one (like Manipulation: Water in buddhist tradition, for example), and can only cast manipulation spells and conjure water spirits without penalties? If I have a mentor spirit, can I choose to aspect my magic towards the spell/spirit type that mentor spirit gives boni for (even if they don't correspond)? Or I am getting this wrong, and I can choose a type of spell and different type of spirit? Also, I have no clue what is meant by
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Sep 28 2006, 06:56 PM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes.
No. The sugestion is that you only be allowed to take the Aspected and Mentor qualities if the selected mentor does fit your setup. So an Aspected Category magician could take the Fire-Bringer mentor if they were a follower of the Paths of the Wheel (way of the bard), but not if they were Hermetic.
Ideally you're supposed to pay actual build points and Karma to get the skills and spells that you suffer a four point dice pool penalty on. Even though, um, partially overcoming that penalty costs more than the quality is worth. It would be better if you were going that route to model your aspect by sinking less Build Points into Sorcery or Conjuring. All in all, the Aspected Magician quality kind of sucks. There were a bunch of various proposals and a lot of them were even worse and a few of them were completely broken. And the one that they ended up with is just... crap actually. It's a cool roleplaying hook, but there is honestly no reason to take Aspected Magician for 5 points when you can take three incompetences for a magical skill group for 15. It's less crippling and it's worth more points. I'm really disappointed with the way that quality came out in the book. If it had been up to me, Aspected Magician would have been a positive quality that cost 10 points, gave you a smaller list of things you could do than being a full magician did, and came with an Initiate Grade of 1 (to represent the old flavor that Aspected Magicians were better at their limited forms of magic than generalists were). Choices would have been: Soprcery Aspect (no Conjuring or Astral Projection) Conjuring Aspect (no Sorcery or Astral Projection) Category Aspect (choose 2 spell categories and the appropriate spirits, those are the ones you can learn/conjure. Also, no Astral Projection). --- But it wasn't up to me, and they went with this instead. And from a mechanical standpoint, there's honestly no reason why any player character would ever have any of the ones in the book. It's sad, because Aspected Magicians used to be a major part of the setting and appeared in many games. -Frank |
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Sep 28 2006, 07:27 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Aspected magicians were approached as limited magicians whose access to magic is severely limited outside their natural aspect/inclination.
While mechanically it might be similar in effect to Incompetency in various magical skills it is, and one could mimic the effect with multiple Incompetencies, the concept is something different altogether. Like a power site which is aspected, it is the aspected magician's own ability to channel mana for certain effects that is inherently flawed. If you prefer an alternative interpretation where by an Aspect magician is a type of specialist there's an option to that effect in tweaking the rules. |
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Sep 28 2006, 08:03 PM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'm familia with the reasning, it just doesn't hold water in game terms. A -4 penalty for 5 points is too large to bother investing points into the things you're penalized in. That makes it functionally identical to simply having the ability to buy less things. If you intended to buy yourself a Spellcasting skill anyway, you'd simply buy 2 less points of Spellcasting saving 8 points) and not take the quality at all (costing 5 points).
If you didn't intend to buy spellcasting, you'd take less shit from simply taking the Incompetence quality for Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting (giving you 10 points). Whether you intend to have any spellcasting capabilities or not, there is mathematically, provably no reason you would ever take the Aspected Conjurer quality. It just moves numbers around, and those numbers are not moved around in a way that makes any sense for a player to ever do. It's really sad, because Aspected Magicians were an important part of the setting. Now they aren't. Only NPCs will ever take this quality because Player Characters are built with BPs and they can get the same effect other ways for less BPs out of the basic book. I presented these mathematical findings when this was being written and I was very disappointed that it was ignored. By the time fifth edition comes around, people won't even consider Aspected Magicians important. If it did anything interesting or provided any unique effect whatsoever, people would consider it. But it's just raw numbers, and the numbers aren't good. -Frank |
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Sep 28 2006, 08:24 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Unfortunate. I actually was thinking of having Fire-Bringer as mentor, in a non-shamanistic approach (meaning another attribute than charisma as second attribute). That would mean the islamic tradition, which typically doesn't have mentor spirits. Or I could create a different mentor spirit, or a different tradition. Fire-Bringer fits my concept basically like a glove (altough fire-spirits aren't exactly the most versatile), and I prefer to stick to the sourcebooks as close as possible . Re-reading the negative quality's description, those options are just examples. So it would be viable to create one option where you aspect to your mentor's advantages, wouldn't it?
If that is true, that's unrealistic nonsense.
Of course I did realize taking a few incompetences would be better in a min/maxing way. I plan on using aspected magician anyway. |
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Sep 28 2006, 08:32 PM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Which is why it suprised me that this quality was included at all... as it was perfectly possible to emulate aspected magicians with Incompetence. |
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Sep 28 2006, 08:39 PM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I wouldn't use the word "viable" since it's just a 5 point quality and you're essentially dropping off your ability to use Magical services from bound spirits in addition to the hefty penalties involved.
All you really need is to include the spell category incompetence flaw, in which you can't summon one kind of spiritor cast the associated kinds of spells and you're good to go I should think. The Aspected quality in Street Magic is more than a bit of a disappointment. :shrug: Oh well, the inclusion of bad options doesn't hurt the game as much as the inclusion of uber options does. After all, you can just not take a bad option. Still, I'm dejected that they gave this particular crap option the name of a very important and legitimate character choice from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions. -Frank |
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Sep 28 2006, 08:41 PM
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#8
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
True. They could've named it something else. Like instead of calling it "Aspected", they could've said something like "Gimped"
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Sep 28 2006, 08:45 PM
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#9
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I have a Sorceror Aspected Mage. However, I also used the optional rule where they get -6 dice for anything not in their field, but +2 dice for (in his case) his Sorcery Skill Group. I considered going the Incompetent route, but I figured I'd just deal with it this way instead. |
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Sep 28 2006, 08:46 PM
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#10
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There is one reason to take Aspected Magician, the same reason for people to take Computer Illiterate Infirm Quadrapalegic Albino Ghoul Cyclops Otaku Changlings with glowing neon green feathers and poor social skills in SR3, roleplaying.
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Sep 28 2006, 09:05 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:rotfl:
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Sep 28 2006, 09:30 PM
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#12
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
You could try following Agni instead, which, IIRC, is a Indian god of fire (not Native -American Indian BTW). Hyzmarca, that's an awesome idea for a character! thanks! :D |
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Sep 28 2006, 10:06 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Actually, the specific option of aspected magician I asked about is worth a whooping 10 points. Also, it doesn't affect spirit binding at all. Apart from -4 for other spell/spirit categories, it has penaltys on assensing, astral combat and enchanting, and partially for arcana. Assensing and astral combat is no biggie, since I want to play a mystic adept without astral sight, and I don't want to do enchanting or arcana.
True :).
I think that's what Synner meant earlier. I'd buy my GM a beer if he went that route ;).
Fire-Bringer stole the secret of fire from the gods. A fire god just can't replace that. My char will be a thief also, and not be afraid to steal from the mightiest (please, tell me if I sound like Emo). Like I said, fits like a glove. When I hear indian, I think of those real indians, not the native american ones ;). |
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Sep 28 2006, 10:17 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes it does. It costs you a -4 penalty when conjuring spirits of other than your special spirit type. So you'd be able to conjure Fire Spirits, who can only use Magic Services for Combat Spells. And cast Manipulation spells, which only Earh Spirits can use Magical Services to enhance. See the problem? You've essentially lost Aid Study and Aid Sorcery and Spell Binding in exchange for... nothing at all. -Frank |
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Sep 28 2006, 10:40 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Actually, I don't see the problem, and can't follow your reasoning. I am not that magic savvy.
A little clarification would be appreciated ;). |
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Sep 28 2006, 10:56 PM
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#16
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
OK, I'll try again.
Let's say that you're a hermetic: You have the ability to conjure 5 kinds of spirits, but the important ones for this discussion are your Earth Elementals and your Fire Elementals. When you summon and bind a Fire Elemental you can expend services to have it teach you or aid you with Combat Spells. That means that a service from a bound Fire Elemental can add dice to learning or casting a Combat Spell. But you don't care, because you don't know any combat spells. You'll never know any Combat Spells, because you're 4 dice down on spellcasting tests for that school of Magic. Build Points spent on learning Combat Spells would be better spent on combat-useful Manipulation spells like Ignite, Control Thoughts, or Petrify. Now, when you summon and bind an Earth Elemental, you can expend services to have it teach you or aid your casting of Manipulation Spells. That's fine, except that you're 4 dice down on summoning and on binding an Earth Elemental. So you aren't going to do it. It's an opposed test, being down 4 dice is very likely to make it just not even work. So the spirits you can conjure can help you with the spells you don't know and the spells you do know are aided only by spirits that you have no chance of conjuring. So a very powerful option is basically being stripped from you and you aren't even getting a piddly amount of points for it. -Frank |
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Sep 28 2006, 11:27 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I think I understand now.
If my char would follow a tradition that uses fire for manipulation, that particular problem would go away? |
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Sep 28 2006, 11:35 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
are you trying to summon Satan? |
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Sep 28 2006, 11:50 PM
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#19
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes, but then you could just take the quality straight from the book without sucking ass any more than normal. I mean, you take a penalty to assensing. Holy shit! -Frank |
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Sep 29 2006, 01:01 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Heh. That was the point I stopped reading that section and resolved never to reread it. |
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Sep 29 2006, 01:56 AM
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#21
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Just because I'm a sadistic asshole doesn't mean I'm not a Player's GM.
Satan? Dude, the entire pantheon of Elder Gods is pissing itself at the thought.
Yeah, I may have to house rule that out for lack of stupid on my part. Sadly, this reminds me that SR4 makes me more eager to houserule stuff than just go with the rules as they're written (outside the Optional Rules). |
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Sep 29 2006, 06:19 AM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The basic problem is that being a mage is too cheap in build points for this to work. As you said later, it works only as a positive quantity that is a lot less than a a mage. And as "magican" is less than 4% of a basic characters BP, reducing it an itsy bit without a major additional cool thing added makes no sense to a rational Player designing a character. You still have to buy the magic points and skills, you just can't do as much. No an efectie way to get a few points back. |
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Sep 29 2006, 09:07 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,032 |
Until know i found one very reason to take Aspected Magician:
Mystic Adept without putting any points in sorcery or conjuring (but purchasing astral sight as adept power) Advantages: You can choose a mentor spirit and the aspected magician quality due to being a mystic adept I chose Owl as my mentor spirit (+2 to assensing and perception) and Astral Aspect (with tweaked rules [which i really strongly advice to use in this case, otherwise it's useless as FrankTrollman said]: another +2 to assensing) costs: 10 (Mystic Adept) +5 (Mentor Spirit) -10 (Astral Aspect) = 5 Advantage: +2(+4) Assensing, +2 perception [minmaxing it out, you could choose the mentor spirit geas as well, for another -10 BP and no disadventages ;-)] (compare costs for a pure adept: also 5) :-) [ Spoiler ]
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Sep 29 2006, 01:27 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Oops, nevermind. I said something dumb.
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Sep 29 2006, 04:08 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
To me, eidetic memory is an active skill. You look at something, and you can memorize it, and recall it later. You can look at an entire page, and memorize it in a second. But I wouldn't let you use Eidetic memory to recall something you didn't actively see.
3d Mastery is passive. Anything that enters your eyes is recorded on 3d Mastery. You can go back later and view things you didn't actively look at. That's why it requires a roll, and eidetic is free. |
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