Why D20 sucks - Dumpshock Forums

Why D20 sucks, Vent here on why you dislike d20

DigitalMage View Member Profile	Nov 13 2003, 11:44 AM Post #51
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 340	D20 Star Wars has Degrees of success on p70 of the Revised Core Rules: Result (Degree of success) DC to DC+9 (Success) DC+10 to DC+19 (Greater Success) DC+20 or higher (Perfect Successes) These are however very limited and are not used for any specific rules that require degrees of success e.g. the Force Defence skill uses resuly bands of 10 to 14, 15 to 19, 20 to 24, 25 to 29 and 30+, as does the Fear skill. If anything I wound say they are better result bands e.g. DC to DC+4 (Adequate) DC+5 to DC+9 (Good) etc Also in Star Wars D20 (RCR p70 again) it states that a Roll of 20 for Skill Use is not an auto success and a Roll of 1 is not an auto failure. The auto success and auto failure are rules for Combat only. I am not sure how that compares to D&D but as an example of the D20 system it works well.

JongWK View Member Profile	Nov 13 2003, 02:42 PM Post #52
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992	A friend of mine house-ruled that a "20" counts as having rolled a 30, while rolling a 1 means you rolled -10. That way, even if they flop, high level characters have a success chance.

vitus979

Nov 14 2003, 05:12 PM

Post #53

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QUOTE (lodestar @ Nov 12 2003, 07:57 PM)

Part of the problem as well with the D20 system as well is its skill system makes no allowances for larger target numbers, nor does it reward a character by being good at a certain skill. For example: If two characters are competing at a cetain skill saypicking a lock in SR a character with a skill of say 1 has less chance of being sucessful, but if he is, he will only be able to do it so fast. A character with a skill of six, however, will possibly be able to reduce the time it takes to do it. The chance of a high skill character making a critical failure is also significantly less. While low skill characters significantly more. In the above example the skill 1 character has a greater chance of say, setting off the alarm in the process.

In the D20 system however, similar characters (one with one skill rank and another with say a rank of six) both still have the same chance of rolling a critical failure (5%) and there is no allowance for the better thief to have a spectacular success. One this gives rise to all characters taking a shot at making a skill check. Two, it makes seemingly less difference between skilled and unskilled users especially since the attribute modifier applies to the skill check, hence a dexterous thief with little skill can be essentially as good as one with lots of skill.

But hey, this is an old arguement. ;)

The only problem with your statement is that only attack rolls and saving throws use the '1 always fails, 20 always succeeds' mechanic. After all, if 20 always succeeded on a jump check you could jump from Waterdeep to Halrua (a couple thousand miles) 5% of the time. :)

Spectacular success: the difference between SR and d20 on this point is that in d20 you decide before you make the check what kind of success you want to have. If you're picking a lock you make the choice to pick it faster before you make the check and take the -5, -10, or whatever penalty for the more spectacular success.

vitus979

Nov 14 2003, 05:28 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (nezumi @ Oct 30 2003, 11:10 PM)

Example 2: There's always someone bigger in SR, and they are obliged to beat you around the head if you start making a lot of noise. I don't care who you are, if you have the ability to take down a SWAT team, they will spend millions of dollars to eliminate you. They will call in the military and firebomb your house. If you're waltzing around wasting cops left and right, they will not stop until you are dead dead dead. This is the way the world is SUPPOSED to be setup (obviously, if your GM doesn't enforce it and you enjoy it, that's fine, it is a game, but the world was made with the intention of you being the little guy always and forever). However, a DnD party waltzes into a village. Unless the GM is sadistic to the point of twisting reality, there is no Elminster living there, and the players can feel free to slaughter with impunity, safe in the knowledge that the local militia is level 6 at best and honestly, no one really cares about a little village in this wild west world.

I'll say this. If you're 10-20th level and walked into Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Thay, or Calimshan (good analogues in Forgotten Realms in size to Seattle) and think you can destroy the city there are plenty of people ruling the city willing to prove you wrong.

As pointed out, a fully equipped 'runner team with 75 karma under their belt would have an equally easy time talking out 'random farming town X' in bumf*ck Idaho as a group of 15th level characters would have of taking out 'random farming Thorp X' in bumf*ck Tethyr.

QUOTE

The D20 standard is an attempt by WotC to make all roleplaying games clones of D&D in order to sell more of their books. If you play D20 then you will play D&D at least once.

Umm, I wouldn't mention that to people playing Mutants & Masterminds or Godlike d20. Given the fact that there are no levels, XP buys individual components, no HP, and no XP for killing stuff I'd say these games are NOT D&D, but ARE d20.

vitus979 View Member Profile	Nov 14 2003, 05:43 PM Post #55
Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 141	For some reason my replies are coming through weird. I just wanted to say that I don't find Swansonmonger's support structure all that odd. I've played in 2 unassociated groups that did this. If you killed the town mayor expect there to be a warrent for your arrest issued by the Baron in a week or two and possible a posse on your tail hunting you down.

lodestar View Member Profile	Nov 25 2003, 05:39 PM Post #56
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720	OK first I just didn't like the system, to each their own. But now I have a real beef with fucking D20. Yes you heard me, Fucking D20! I took a trip to the Sentry Box the other day, and had the most difficult time finding the SR stuff. In its usual place was the Slayer's guide to Rules Lawyers and lovingly displayed the latest Urban Arcana crap. Where was the SR? I ws hoping to get a copy of SOTA 2063. To my dismay the SR was to be found up all jammed together on one small shelf. Jammed litterally as most of the books had torn and crunched up the pages. Such disrespect will not be tolerated! The biggest insult of course ws the fact that it's rightful space was now the home of some of the lesser quality D20 stuff. :(

Swansonegger View Member Profile	Nov 26 2003, 10:25 PM Post #57
Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,576	Hey, the Box has to make room for what sells I guess. Battletech has been slowly moved into it's smaller corner. If you got a real beef, talk to the staff. I know the Sentry Box is one of the most helpful shops in Calgary. I am still choked they moved the "New Arrivals" shelf though. But that is because of all the Warhammer product they are moving through. So it's not just D20, but also Whorewammer too. It could be worse lodestar, the Box could still be tucked behind Marda Loop on 34th Ave by the old Currie Barracks, and they wouldn't have ANY space for anything except D20 and Warhammer. :grinbig: BTW, here is arguably the best gaming store in Canada.

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 26 2003, 10:34 PM Post #58
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	I'd agree; from the few times I've been there, Sentry Box is excellent. Does Tramps on.. err.. McLeod Trail, I think, still have a games section? Last time I was there I scored a ton of old/used/rare Shadowrun stuff for $5-10 per book - I dropped around $150 that evening. ;-)

lodestar View Member Profile	Nov 26 2003, 11:04 PM Post #59
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720	It does still have some stuff but not much is left. (Probably because you got it all ;)) You're right, The Box is a pretty good place, I was just dissappointed to see how poorly the SR stuff was handled. When I'm planning to drop some cash and find a very poor regard for the product, especially some of the new SR stuff, I just walk away and remind myself I got other things to spend cash on. I mean even some of the brand new SR stuff was in very poor shape. Given that I know at least a dozen or so people that buy it and inquire about it it seems that it is unlikely that it sells less than the comparable D20 stuff. It seems more that it is something that the store workers themselves are interested in gets more attention. (this from talking to some of the employees on what they play.) I miss the old location! Remember the outside wall mural? Its gone. I think there's a coffee shop in its place.

Plastic Rat View Member Profile	Nov 28 2003, 05:44 AM Post #60
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 30-April 02 From: Taiwan, Kaohsiung UB chapter Member No.: 2,665	I think Bull's reply sums things up pretty much for me. I apologise if I mention points that already have been said as I mainly skimmed through this thread, it's pretty long. As for me personally, I believe you'll find that it's generally a certain kind of individual that dislikes D20. These same individuals will probably have a dislike for Microsoft if they're into computers (who isn't) and a dislike for EA games if they're into gaming. Even though I can see that it makes sense from a companies view on profit to do what they're doing to the market, I have to see things from the consumers point of view. Monopolisation is bad, period. I doubt this thread will have any of the abovementioned companies execs weeping in their boardrooms over their sins, but it's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. :) Beyond that point, my biggest issue is that the system attracts more smacktards and can ruin things for the serious players. Companies however don't really care about the person paying them money, so it's also a moot point. Besides, even though i will always be loyal and adoring to SR and it's creators, I do believe that if SR3 was currently in the position that D20 is the same arguments heading at WotC would be thrown at Wizkids/Fasa and I think it would have the same effect. Money is money, and publishers are businesses like all the rest. Still won't make me take down my dartboard collage of WotC, MS and EA. :D

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 28 2003, 06:18 AM Post #61
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	A monopoly? You mean the company I work for doesn't actually exist? Does this mean I can sleep in tomorrow? ;-)

Plastic Rat View Member Profile	Nov 28 2003, 06:26 AM Post #62
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 30-April 02 From: Taiwan, Kaohsiung UB chapter Member No.: 2,665	Symantecs symantecs...damnit, you know what I mean :D Besides, tomorows Saturday ... I think..., so sleep in and tell your boss the rat told you to do it.

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 28 2003, 06:33 AM Post #63
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	Not on this side of the world. Tomorrow, work, Friday, lan party, Sunday, Forgotten Realms. :-)

Pistons

Nov 28 2003, 05:29 PM

Post #64

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QUOTE (Plastic Rat @ Nov 28 2003, 01:26 AM)

Symantecs symantecs

Semantics. "Symantec" is the Norton's AntiVirus website.

Synner

Nov 28 2003, 06:05 PM

Post #65

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QUOTE (Pistons)

QUOTE (Plastic Rat @ Nov 28 2003, 01:26 AM)

Symantecs symantecs

Semantics.

ROFLOL I wondered when someone was going to say something.

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 28 2003, 06:46 PM Post #66
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	Well, it's actually the name of the company that produces Norton Antivirus... but the less said about that piece of software, the better. :D

Plastic Rat View Member Profile	Nov 29 2003, 03:44 AM Post #67
Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 30-April 02 From: Taiwan, Kaohsiung UB chapter Member No.: 2,665	I think I'll start posting in chinese, at least then I'll be sure no-one can pick apart my spelling, word use, grammar ....or is that gramar? Oh screw this, I give up.

Swansonegger

Nov 29 2003, 03:59 AM

Post #68

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QUOTE (Adam)

Does Tramps on.. err.. McLeod Trail, I think, still have a games section?

Sure does. There are a lot of Tramps in Calgary now, although the one on McLeod and Southland was the original. The one I usually go to now is on Crowchild and 5th Ave (handy little stop on my way home from the Box ;) ). I picked up the Germany and Aztlan sourcebooks there, along with BTech 3055 & 3058 TROs. Handy to get some old RPG stuff, if you don't mind the wear on the stuff, and having to wait and look for it.

QUOTE

I miss the old location! Remember the outside wall mural? Its gone. I think there's a coffee shop in its place.

The old place rocked, it was an adventure when I was young to go there. But the new Sentry Box is really awesome in its new location, with pretty much any RPG/war game/what ever you could want, and the space to play in too.

DanJ View Member Profile	Nov 29 2003, 04:12 AM Post #69
Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 2-November 03 From: Australia Member No.: 5,782	I personally dont really hate the d20 system although there are a few gripes i do have with it: Call of Cthulhu was heaps better when it was not using the d20 system. the d20 system is trying to take over all the good rpgs. them releasing a new edition every 3 years is annoying becuase that doesnt give you enough time to settle and use the system get books for it and suppliments etc enjoy them then anew edition comes out and you have to repeat the process all over again and you have to wait again for all your favourite source books to come out for the new edition.

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 29 2003, 04:36 AM Post #70
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	Well, Call of Cthulthu is still being published using the BRP system; very few games have converted entirely to d20.

Ancient History View Member Profile	Nov 29 2003, 05:09 AM Post #71
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	The heavily modified d20 system used by Mutants and Masterminds is cool.

Scarab

Nov 30 2003, 07:26 AM

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QUOTE (Ancient History)

The heavily modified d20 system used by Mutants and Masterminds is cool.

Care to elaborate?

Pistons View Member Profile	Nov 30 2003, 06:13 PM Post #73
Not Cameron Diaz Group: Retired Admins Posts: 472 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Newark, Delaware Member No.: 188	Actually, M&M is based more off of the material in the OGL.

Ancient History View Member Profile	Nov 30 2003, 06:20 PM Post #74
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	Essentially M&M is d20 Lite. No classes, DnD-derived spells, psionics and magic items, no hit points. As Pistons-hime so kindly pointed out, it's much more the Open Gaming License-no DnD corebooks necessary. You've still got the main stats, saves, skills and feats (essentially, the good stuff.) Plus, the most flexible super-powers system I've yet seen. Personally, I'd prefer if the setting was better (they should provide some alternates, a deal with WIldstorm or PS238 would rock), but the system itself is wonderbar. SOme of Kenson's best work (IMO).

Adam

Dec 1 2003, 05:35 AM

Post #75

Prime Runner

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QUOTE (Pistons)

Actually, M&M is based more off of the material in the OGL.

The OGL doesn't contain material; it's a license. You could write your own material and put it under the OGL. Unfortunatley, people have taken to calling System Reference Document 3.0- and System Reference Document 3.5- and Modern System Reference Document-based games "OGL compatible" -- which technically means nothing, but in many people's heads means "mostly d20 compatible but with chargen."

That said, hard to argue with doing something that sells more books. ;)

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