DnCrg SR4 Character Generator (Early Dev), looking for comments, suggestions, help Options

[thewolf]

Well, I got tired of waiting for a SR4 windows character generation tool to appear, so I decided to write one myself. I've been working on this for two weeks on evenings and weekends. It's coming along quite nicely for ~20 hours of work or so.

Language: C#.Net 2.0
Environment: Visual Studio 2005

.Net Framework 2.0 REQUIRED

I'm making this post to give people a preview of what's coming up and to ask for general suggestions and criticism on the design/layout/functionality. Everything is still pretty malleable, so changes probably won't be a big deal at this point.

Of course I plan on releasing this free of charge to the public once it is done. I will also open the code via a license agreement that allows you to modify to your heart's content. I am mainly concerned with making sure no one sells it, but I don't think FanPro or WizKids would let that happen anyways.

On the assistance part, I am a pretty fast typist, but there is a lot of content to add. Cyberware, spells, qualities, traditions, mentor spirits, etc all have detailed descriptions that need to be typed into a .dat file. I am still cementing the file format as I program this, but at some point I would like some help in getting those .dat files put together.

Screenshots:

Tab 1 - Basic Info
Tab 2 - Attributes and Race
Tab 3 - Skills
Tab 4 - Qualities
Tab 5 - Augmentations
Tab 6 - Magic, Traditions and Mentor Spirits
Tab 6 - Spells
Tab 6 - Adept Powers
Tab 7 - Matrix
Tab 8 - Contacts
Tab 9 - Gear

OK, so let me know if I missed something, what looks good/bad, what should be moved where, you'd better do this like this or you'll regret it, etc. Thanks,

[Darkraven]

this is pretty cool looking so far

[Tekumel]

Looks pretty clean so far. I'd like to get my grubby little hands on a copy, whenever you feel comfortable doing so. The only question that pops into my mind is, have you included some way to alter the number of BP, for campaigns with higher/lower numbers?

And a small idea, you might consider breaking the .dat files up by sourcebook, and giving the user options to enable/disable certain books, that way you're not picking powers/spells/gear from books you don't have access too.

I'd be willing to help out with some of the typing, once you solidify the format for the files.

[Blade]

It looks nice.

Having entered most of the data in Daegann's generator, I know how long it takes to type everything into these files.
You might consider using some "open" datafile system (such as XML) so that other character generator could use them and so that anyone can easily change their datafile.
You might also try to parse Daegann's generator files to create your own. I don't remember exactly how they work, but basically there are separators between the entries, and separators between the different attributes of each entries. HEX numbers indicating the length of the following string followed by the string itself.
Take a look at them with an hex editor, I'm fairly sure they can be parsed to get the data into a better form (such as an XML file).

Keep up the good work.

[Serbitar]

May I ask in what format you are putting the gear and cyberware . . . stuff in ?
I have some files for my randomjoe programm and maybe we can find a format that is fitting both.

[thewolf]

Thanks for the compliments, everyone. I'm glad people think it looks alright, b/c I do this for a living ;) .

@ Tekumel
I didn't show the Options choice from the Tools menubar. That's where I plan to put reasonably configurable options like BP's, turn on/off rules, etc. Allowable sourcebooks isn't a bad idea, I should make room for that in the .dat file formats.

@ Blade
When I started this project, I was originally thinking, "wow, what a great time to whip out the XML and throw down", but alas, actually working with XML files really sucks. I've got object serialization down, but using a flat file database turned out to be majorly fast, both in development time and parsing speed. If I published the format (or added a header) to the flat files, I don't think anyone would have an issue reusing them for another project. I looked at Daegann's data files as well, saw hex, and said "ick" and moved on. Basically I was cloning the NSCRG, so I copied their general dat file layout as well and it has worked well so far.

@ Serbitar
The cyberware and gear (as well as all of the other dat files) are in pipe-delimited text files (Pipe = "|"). It has worked as a good delimiter so far. I am putting in detailed descriptions for the cyberware, but not for the gear due to the sheer volume and lack of screenspace. Gear items will have only their basic stats, but cyberware has a description like "cranial bomb - designed to kill user with implanted explosive, etc". I am just now getting to those sections as far as hooking it up to the UI, so those formats are definitely in flux.

[Kairo]

This looks really good. I like the clean and crisp appearance. Will there be a print option available with this?

[thewolf]

@ Kairo
Yes, that will be a must. I'm thinking an export to html might be the best way to do that, maybe PDF at some point. Whatever isn't a lot of work. I'm a pretty lazy programmer :D

[Serbitar]

At the moment I am using "\t" (tab) delimited text files, and I am using my lists mostly for my search utility for randomjoe, which has far less information (for example no stat changes for cyberware).

[thewolf]

Howdy all. Still working on this, I think it may be one to two weeks before I have something that could be beta-tested. In the meantime I may do some non-versioned releases.

Over the past few days I have cleaned up the interface and tried to make the controls as uniform as possible. I also have serialization and deserialization working, so saving and opening character files shouldn't be a problem.

Technomancer and Vehicle tabs are still totally blank, and only the skills tab is getting close to complete. The datagrid management buttons are there, but don't work. Basically a lot of events need to be added and handled, as well as error messages for bad input, outside of rules, etc.

DnCrg Development Site

I put up a simple site to keep track of releases, requests, bugs, and other things. Not a lot of info right now, but hopefully it will fill up.

[thewolf]

What demand is there for internationalizing the interface/.dat files? I thought Shadowrun had a pretty good following in France and Germany, so au Francais and auf Deutsch? I know a little German, but my translations would probably inspire more entertainment than information. I can build the functionality in if people would want/use it.

[thewolf]

10/08/2006
Early Development Release: Aruba

Download Executable (ZIP, 94KB)

Subject to License Agreement

This is a preview-type release to those who want an advance look at how things will work or would like to help me in testing the product. There are still many features that do not work, and I have disabled certain sections where functionality is completely missing. Also, much of the content tables is still missing. In spite of all of this, it is somewhat workable and the basics of the program are coming together.

- Basic info is done except for lifestyle
- Attributes, skills, and qualities are done. Qualities need descriptions typed in.
- Augmentations is set up except for items that use capacity, cyberlimbs, and attribute modifying cyberware. A lot of cyberware/bioware missing from dat file.
- Magic and Matrix are still in development, pretty much do nothing right now.
- Contacts is done.
- Gear is missing accessorization, otherwise is quite functional and complete.
- Vehicles works for standard autos, but needs to have functionality filled in for customization.
- Review page works except for starting nuyen and augmentations

I wouldn't spend a great deal of time putting in data into this app, because although it does save and reopen files, it may not load everything correctly again (more than likely it will fail to display properly).

Bug reports are welcome, also I appreciate comments/suggestions for enhancing the application at all times. Enjoy,

[Tekumel]

1. Tabbing through the fields on the "Basic Info" tab is out of order. Would suggest putting it in a more logical progression if possible.

2. The "Attributes" tab fields that you fill in to add to your attributes aren't labeled, and aren't immediately obvious that this is what you're ADDING to the base attribute, instead of what you want the FINAL to be.

3. On the "Qualities" tab, make sure to put a note that qualities like Addiction & Allergy REQUIRE a "Quality Note" to be typed in to be added. Also on this tab, I'm guessing you intended the X next to the selected quality list to be the key to delete the highlighted quality from the list? It doesn't work.

4. Would suggest moving the "Gear" tab before any other item purchase tabs, or moving the "Apply BP to Resources" box somewhere more conspicuous.

That's all that jumps out at me in a quick session of playing with it. Looks good so far though man.

Did you still need help with the data entry part?

[thewolf]

@ Tekumel
1. Yeah, I noticed that. Consider it on the look and feel list to be fixed at some point.
2. I guess I figured that would be obvious. Is there a better way to do that? A label is no big deal at the top, like "Purch" or something. I separated the totals and maxes off to the side if you wanted to look at that when making your purchases. I was used to one of the Excel spreadsheet programs that does it exactly like that, so it was natural for me.
3. I can do like a red asterisk next to the Quality Note textbox to make it more obvious that a note is required. I haven't hooked up all of the grid control buttons, but I will get there.
4. I agree on the placement of the "apply to resources" box. Maybe if I move that to the top of the gear tab and shove the listboxes down, it will be more conspicuous.

Probably after the next dev release I will have the .dat file formats cemented and I can get people to type some stuff in, particularly on the magic section. Also, you will probably notice it is quite permissive. Error messages, input checking and restrictions come last, since it makes life difficult when testing and it's more of a "final touches" item.

[Tekumel]

[thewolf]

I like label changes. Those are easy ;)

I could also make more room on the Basic Info tab and change the Lifestyle groupbox to "Finances". Then put the Add Nuyen textbox in there so you can swap out build points for cash and select your lifestyle in one spot.

Like So?

[Tekumel]

Awesome. Might throw the old "1BP = 5000 :nuyen: " Note under the BP box label as well.

[thewolf]

Any other testers out there? Download for early development release is a few posts up.

Thanks to Tekumel for helpful input.

[Eleazar]

I like how it works so far. I only found one thing wrong, though it might actually be because it isn't finished yet. When I choose the magician quality I can't change my magic stat to increase it. Everything stays at 0.

I have some recommendations.

1. One thing I like about Daegann's character generator is when I raise an attribute past it's natural maximum it will add the exceptional quality automatically. It will do the same for skills as well.

2. I also like the fact that Mundane, Adept, Mystica Adept, Magician, and Technomancer are all chosen at the beginning of character creation. The reason for this is so that all my attributes can be filled at once. I think this is even more vital for your system because things like this could force the user to flip back and forth between the tabs. Tabs are a great way to organize information and have it look clean and concise. They can also force a user to flip back and forth between information again and again because something they just changed in the qualities affects their attributes. To exemplify further the exceptional quality would also force me to go back to the attribute tab to raise it. Please refrain from anything like this that would force the user to go back and forth between tabs. Obviously if the user needs to double check information in a previous tab or wishes to change something in a previous tab that is their own decision not forced by the design of the program.

3. Skills. I need a clarification on something. I am pretty sure during charcter creation I could take the Sorcery skill group to 4 and then decide to only raise up Spellcasting to 5. So I would have:
Counter Spelling 4
Ritual Spellcasting 4
Spellcasting 5
If this is true, could you please make sure that your system would then add Skill Group ratings and Single Skill ratings? It might work something like Skill Group Spellcasting rating 4 + Single Skill Spellcasting rating 1 = Total Skill Spellcasting rating 5.

4. It would be nice to be able to arrange all skills by Attribute before I select them. I realize there is already a table in Shadowrun, but I would like the ability to create a character with this system without having to always consult the SR sourcebook. I can't remember everything.

5. If you could restrict the user from viewing information that isn't pertinant to their character that would be nice. I know this will make coding more difficult, but it would really help out. For instance, if I am a mundane I shouldn't see the magician or technomancer related skills, qualities, abilities, spells, complex forms, etc. Obviously as a mundane some tabs would be completely removed from view.


Everything else seems pretty good. That is all I can think of right now. I really like this interface the best out of all the chargens available for SR4 so far.

[Fortune]

[thewolf]

@Eleazar
The magic attribute doesn't increase with the quality, as that isn't done yet. Will be soon though!

1) & 2) Really the same topic. I sort of agree but disagree with you, if that's possible. There will be plenty of tab changing for attributes/qualities, definitely, as I set up the tabs in the order that the character creation steps are in the book. It is less efficient to go to qualities, add "Magician", then go back and increase Magic accordingly. However, I want to avoid the situation where a quality is unexpectedly added when someone takes a skill at 7 or an attribute above max. Yeah, they should know the rules, but I'm programming for the "lowest common denominator" ;) ...heh, I love that. I think the simpler design will prevail over the more efficient, but slightly more complex one in the end. Besides, in personal experience, I have found myself all over a character gen sheet back and forth, switching this and that to optimize BP expenditure.

3) Fortune is correct on that one.

4) As in, you want to know/view the skills by linked attribute, instead of by category? Or just be able to see the linked attribute next to the skill name in the listbox? Either of those wouldn't be hard. Having it in the listbox is probably a good call.

5) For sure. That will happen at the end, when I lock down the user interface with lots of error messages, restrictions, disable certain areas, etc. Technomancer and Magic come to mind as the only real possibilities there.

Thanks for the compliment and the review. I think I'll get a chance to work on some stuff tonight.

[Eleazar]

4) I think you had it right with the first question. To rexpalin it. The skills in the skill tab are currently listed like so:
Skill Groups
Combat
Magic
Physical
Social
And so on...

If possible, I would like it so that I could lists all the skills by attribute. So, if I selected Intuition, I would see every skill that uses Intuition as it's linked attribute for the dicepool. I can see this being very useful for magician's so they can choose skills that compliment their tradition's drain stat or any character that needs more flavor by adding a skill that has a high linked attribute. I realize in the SR4 sourcebook there is already a table with this information, but it would be nice to have it in the program.

The first column is the one I described already which has Skill Groups as it's first item. You could add something likeAttribute: Intuition, Attribute: Logic, Attribute: Strength and so on to this first column. In the second column you would then have the individual skills linked to that attribute, and then the third column would be filled with the specializations available for that skill.

The other implementation I thought of would use radio buttons and would populate column 1 based upon which radio button was selected. If I selected the "skill category" radio button It would populate column 1 with the current list. If I selected "attribute radio button" it would populate column 1 with attributes. Maybe more radio buttons could be made so that the user could organize the skills in varying ways. Though all I can currently think of are 2 radio buttons. So I think it makes this way less viable unless more ways to organize the skills are thought up and are actually useful.

[thewolf]

Skills by Attribute...

Like So?

[Eleazar]

Looks great!. Wow, that was quick.

[lorechaser]

Very nice. I'm gonna d/l a copy and poke around at it as well.