 Parachuting Skill, Has anybody used this? |
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 Oct 1 2006, 06:24 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 9-December 04 From: former Bug City, now CFS Member No.: 6,875  |
...and if so, how?
What were the results? It seems to me that there'd be few circumstances to get to use a skill like this. Ditto for swimming, for that matter. |
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Oct 1 2006, 06:38 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Swimming isnt just for when you need to swim. It is also used for when you need to hold your breath for long times, like in a huge gas cloud or something along those lines.
Now the parachuting skill... I have no idea. |
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Oct 1 2006, 06:39 AM
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#3
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Not SR4, but in a game I GMed in SR3, a character was a thrill junkie, and one hobby was base jumping. He base jumped the Space Needle in one game.
So I guess as far as there being circumstances, that's going to be up to the GM. If the character takes a skill like that, I try to give them the chance to use it at some point. Give and take, you know? |
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 Oct 1 2006, 08:12 AM
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#4
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,040 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Used Parachuting in SR3 once. ;)
On a similar topic... when do you use Swimming and when do you use Diving? Surely, someone with Swimming won't be completely helpless all of a sudden, if diving a few inches below the water surface!? Bye Thanee |
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Oct 1 2006, 08:37 AM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I'd say Diving would be swimming using external air sources. Swimming means you only breath from the atmosphere. So free diving is swimming, scuba is diving, and combat swimmer operations using an oxygen rebreather is diving. And cave diving with a mixed gas rebreather is still nuts, but uses diving skill. |
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Oct 1 2006, 08:39 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I would rule swimming as more of a skill used while you are moving on the surface of the water. The depth would be as far as you can go holding your own breath. This is because swimming up top uses your full body and movements are more freestyle in how they want to swim.
Diving is used once they use any knowledge or equipment past a snorkle to swim deeper than using the swimming skill. Examples would be knowledge and use of airtanks, flippers, wetsuits, boyancy devices and knowledge on how to surface without getting the bends. If you watch any TV shows on underwater cavern exploration, you see that they arnt really using thier full body to swim, but just slight movements of thier legs. This is to save energy for a long dive and if you are a novice, you might tire yourself by using too much movement or the incorrect movements. Edit: Damn you, kzt, you posted a few minutes before me. :D |
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Oct 1 2006, 09:24 AM
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#7
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Three words, percision HALO insertions. Sometimes, going in the the door isn't an option and neither is tunneling in from above. In those cases it is helpful to have the parachute skill.
Also, one should not forget percision HALO extractions. Get on the same commercial flight as your extraction target, grab him, and pop the door open. Time it so that you have a boat or a ground team waiting below. |
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Oct 1 2006, 04:42 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
Our team has used parachutes before, but not a lot. We've dropped on large yachts, and remote corporate facilities. Only one of the team members had the skill at creation, to reflect his background. The rest developed the skill as the campaign wore on. It all obviously depends on the type of campaign you run in. Ours is definitely more like Rainbow Six than Heat. We've also used diving as well, to slip up on targets unaware.
Hyz, I love the idea of a HALO extraction! Move over D.B. Cooper! |
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Oct 1 2006, 04:54 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
good point hyz, however what test do you apply? i remember the tests from sr3, which were imho utter bullshit.
i once thought about having the PC make three test: 1. extended test on the ground for packing his parachute (of course you can always buy a prepacked chute) 2. first jump test aka free fall movement ( can be skipped on standard jumps, but HALOs and free fall stunts ala james Bond def. call for this) 3. chuted movement test, to determine how precise the jump will be. 4. landing test to determine werther your touchdown is gonna hurt or not. |
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Oct 1 2006, 05:46 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Asking for too many tests is just making the player roll until they fail fatally. Here are the chances of failing one of a required number of tests:
So someone with professional level parachuting (6 dice) has roughly a 40% chance to fail at least one of those 4 rolls. In general I'd limit parachuting tests as follows: roll 1 time. If you botch, something bad happens (now would be a good time to spend edge). If you fail, you have to make a body test vs some amount fo damage. If you suceed, you get where you want to go. After all, the parachuting itself is not an important part of te run, it is either a complication or window dressing. Requring the players to roll until he fails, then cackling gleefully as his character makes a crater in the groud is just silly. |
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Oct 1 2006, 06:00 PM
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#11
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
We had a group full of characters w/ parachuting .They mostly used it for HALO jumps like hyzmarca described. They actually used it to try gettnig into the arc once. They;ve used it a few more times to get in to remote places like Amazonia and Alaska. They were also big fans of night gliders. Made for a neat game. We'd usually have them make 3-5 test, with one for jumping out (easy test, 1 success "woo-hoo, I fell out of a plane" :D ) then more tests for acutally maneuvering, like droping onto a building in Seattle in the middle of the night. Good times , good times.
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Oct 1 2006, 07:01 PM
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#12
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I would prefer 1 test with something like grenade scatter rules, successes reduce the parachutter's scatter. The parachuter only suffers a rough landing on a glitch. On a critical glitch the parachuter is advised to try to land on something soft and otherwise put his head between his knees and kiss his ass goodbye.
It isn't impossible to resist falling damage from 10,000 meters but it is darn sure difficult. PS. Am I the only one who noticed that gravity in SR4 is more than 50% greater than gravity on our Earth? In SR4, falling objects accelerate at a rate of 16.6m/s^2 while Earth gravity is 9.8 m/s^2. This would actually explain the absurd equipment weights of previous SR editions. Things weigh more because gravity is greater. |
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Oct 1 2006, 07:34 PM
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#13
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I guess the damage values didn't seem hefty enough for falling.
Either that or the return of magic made gravity stronger, which would explain why so many of my players try to push their strength and body to six, even if it doesn't make sense for their character types. ;) |
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Oct 1 2006, 08:13 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The issue with doing things like HALO or HAHO is that you need a rather large and capable multi-engine aircraft to do this. And if you have a tens of millions of dollar transport jet that you can whistle up to do this, you are not exactly running a typical 'PCs are criminals working as deniable assets' game. I could live in STYLE for the cost of the flight crew, maintenance crew and support contract on a jet. Diving for infiltration is a lot less equipment heavy, as you can just use one of them $12,500 "opulent luxury yacht"s to get there. |
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Oct 1 2006, 08:24 PM
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#15
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There are such things as charter flights, and you really don't need a SOTA cargo jet. Any WWII propeller driven rustbuckets will work almost was well as they did during WWII.
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Oct 1 2006, 08:28 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
You could probably also rent a private plane for a few hundreds buck and jump from a little lower height (say, 5000m). |
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Oct 1 2006, 08:52 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 20-February 04 From: in the matrix Member No.: 6,091 |
I have had more than one character use this skill. Not in SR4 but in SR2/3. I had one that jumped (based jumped) out of a 45th floor window of a building they were running in. I have jumped outof more than one plane and landed in a compound, or near a target or something. Would I say it is a common skill that most should have? nope but it worked for me.
As for swimming, it is like in D&D. If you dont have it, then you will need it, and if you have it, then you wont. I have done more than my fair share swimming. It is not always you are running in downtown Seattle with brick/concrete all around you. Or at least it wasnt for me. dog |
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Oct 1 2006, 08:54 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
The point of a HALO though is that you fly higher then your enemies ground radar is looking up, then you bullet down towards the earth as fast as poosible to minimize the amount of time you spend in their "view' then open your chute just under their radar and hope there arent any eyes on teh ground watching or smaller radar systems looking for you. A HAHO is basically the same thing, flying up really high, so high you need to carry oxygen with you when you jump from the plane but this time you open your chute almost as soon as you jump then glide into enmey terroritory. I forget about how far you can glide but you can theoretically be dropped in international waters and glide into the US.
The problem with using any old rust bucket or jumping from 5000m is you are not achieving the goals of the HALO/HAHO jump. Your rust bucket will never get above the radar scan, and jumping from 5000m puts you right in the heart of the radar scan. So using your rust bucket or 5000m charter flight you might as well just by a ticket and land at the airport, itll be safer and you get to watch and inflight movie or set off flares as you parachute in, sort of like the Golden Eagles Army parachute team does when they do their arieal shows. EDIT: Using your rust bucket or charter flight would be possible if you knew some people. Say you charter the plane to do somethign legal, or you bribe your way onto a legal flight, then jump while its on its legal route. That could work. |
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Oct 1 2006, 09:12 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
To do a HALO or HAHO jump, the plan is that the target not notice the aircraft. So you are typically jumping from high altitude (like 25,000 feet) at typical aircraft altitude. This way their radar doesn't show anything suspicious, like your plane flying directly over their facility at 5000 feet and 150 knots so you can safely unass the plane like they did in WW2. This means you are jumping from an airplane moving at commercial flight speed and altitude. You can't just calmly jump out the side door of an airplane at 600 knots and 25,000 feet. For one thing, you can't open it unless you depressurize the plane: the doors open inward, against the tons of pressure difference. The other thing is that the wind is really intense at 600 knots and will most likely do really bad things to you as you bounce off the airplane (assuming you don't get sucked into the tail mounted engines). Which is why people typically jump from the cargo ramp of planes designed to allow the cargo bay to be depressurized in flight. If you can charter a plane to do this that would work, but they will have to know exactly what you are doing to fly the correct profile. And be willing to do things like depressurize the plane and open doors in flight. Not the kind of thing that insurers and licensing organizations like. Probably a small number of these operators, but if you have the right contacts, and enough money you could do it. But anyone who would fly this sort of mission is a pretty serious operator themselves, and it really won’t be cheap. (Expensive equipment + high risk + low competition = high cost) With a HAHO jump you can also get a 20-40+ km offset, so the plane doesn't need to fly anywhere close to the target. It also allows you to do things like cross international borders that you might have difficulty getting permission to fly over. Guys with parachutes have a hell of lower signature than a cargo jet. |
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Oct 1 2006, 09:15 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
We (at least I) are not talking about a jump in enemy territory with SOTA aerial defense.
Wikipedia lists the gliding distanve from a HAHO jump (8000 m) at about 30 miles. Jumps from the rust buckets from WWII were at height of a few hundred feet. A jump from a cessna or whatever from 5000m would still allow you to glide 15 miles or so. The only problem I see with an insertion like this: in a time of levitate, easily aquired air transport or flying drones carrying a person, security for installations will most likely defend against intrusion from above. |
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Oct 1 2006, 09:30 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 20-February 04 From: in the matrix Member No.: 6,091 |
rust buckets, props, cesnas, etc can fly high enough to do the jumps. Most parachut schools use planes that are 20-30-50 years old. Doesnt need to go real fast (and probably shouldnt), and only has to get high enough for you to jump out, count to at least 3 before pulling the rip cord.
levitate is not that common. Ok it might be fairly common with mages, especially running mages but most people can not do it. As for drones, yeah they are out there but most of them will be Corps or LawEnforcement types. The average Joe can not afford to buy/maintain/control drones. I know riggers that are runners have them but the average joe doesnt. Most security is against the widest breath of attacks (the average Joe). Now as a site/company ups it secuirty, it take the "average joe" defenses and adds to it. Think about it this way. First you did when buying your house (or condo or getting your apartment) was change the locks on the doors. This defeats the common Joe. Then you might add a security system or a dog to the house (escalating to the next level of threat protection). But how many of us have on site armed guards, dogs, security systems, electronic and mechanical locks, video survaleince, etc in our homes? not many. Most of us have not past the mechanical locks on the doors/windows. Maybe to the dog or security system level. Remember as the site/company adds more security to the location the more of a beacon it becomes for people to come there to "do bad things" but also it costs more/month. so depending on where you are going to, parachuting in would be an effective way to enter.. then again it may not. dog |
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Oct 1 2006, 09:54 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
I wasnt saying you cant jump from a rust bucket. I know jump schools use old planes, they are generally cheaper to buy them then new ones.
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Oct 1 2006, 10:00 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
These kinds of planes do easily go high enough to do parachute jumps, but HALO is not just a parachute jump. It's technique to get you to the ground without anyone noticing the airplane 5-7 miles up or the parachutists jumping out of it. On radar it looks just like another comercial flight, more or less. You get some offset from the target buy not much, so it's not used when flying over the target gets you shot down. HAHO is a jump at those altitudes when you can't or won't fly near the target. Typical off-set ranges are 20-40 km, with some new gear promising 100 km+ These are both much more demanding than traditional static parachuting, with lots of ways things can go seriously wrong and either screw up the mission and/or get you severely messed up. They are used for getting into high threat areas where safer and less complex approaches, like a helo landing you on the target, won't work. Parachuting in a conventional low altitude drop is an easier and safer approach than HALO/HAHO. |
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Oct 1 2006, 10:36 PM
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#24
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
nothing like hitching a ride on one of those permanent winds thats up there where the jets fly, with a parachute :P
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Oct 2 2006, 02:39 AM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The running out of air and freezing solid part would sort of suck. . . |
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