 You need gore in your games, Because gore is t3h r34l |
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 Oct 3 2006, 05:17 AM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
Today, I feel like quoting from a Vietnam War memoir, "Green Knight, Red Mourning," by Richard Ogden, to demonstrate how for a role playing game hideous firearms-related gore is realistic and therefore necessary. After all, how can the players really think about their in-character character reactions if they don't have visceral imagery to react to? The abstract concept of getting shot and killed is something we're all desensitized to but perhaps the only way to get people to really play the role of someone in a violent and stressful situation is to give them a vivid, realistic tableau of the mangling and destruction of a firefight. Even though pistol knocback is supposed to be nothing more than a nervous reaction, here's an account of knockback (into the air, apparently!) from 7.62 NATO rounds:
-pg 235 Apparently, even a pistol shot can spray you with brains:
-pg 239
SOURCE: Ogden, Richard E. "Green Knight, Red Mourning". Pinnacle Books, October 2002. |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:36 AM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
"[...] seven or eight feet into the air."
Uhh, wow. Amazing jumpers, those Viet Cong. There can never be too much sprayed brains, though. |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:43 AM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Honestly, if you read enough Vietnam War memoirs you will come across some truly freaky shit. There's one I don't have with me to reference right now, but the title was "And A Hard Rain Fell". That account is more negative than the other accounts because the writer was drafted and basically hated every second of it, whereas Ogden enlisted. Anyway, the author of "And A Hard Rain Fell" claims that the moment of the war that really broke his brain was the time that he had to shoot this Vietnamese guy many many times to stop him. Later when he went to examine the horribly mangled body the dead guy had a big erection as if to say, 'fuck you GI, I enjoyed coming at you in a suicidal bid to kill you'. I don't remember the exact words the author used but that was the effect of his mental visualization. He claims that that was the moment that he felt his mental wholeness finally snap and that he felt he incurred some irreversible mental trauma. |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:46 AM
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#4
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I think I've seen this movie.
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Oct 3 2006, 06:10 AM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually that would be nerve damage. When the cervical spine gets injured the regulatory system for the blood vessels cuts out. That means that all the vessels revert to their uncontrolled, dilated condition. And when your vessels dilate, blood collects in them. Causing priapism and a deadly drop in blood pressure. It's called spinal shock and it's a bad sign for trauma care. -Frank |
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Oct 3 2006, 09:27 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 23-August 06 Member No.: 9,205 |
I would SERIOUSLY doubt any report of machingun bullets causing that much knockback. There's either something else going on (like they hit a mine at the same time), or the report is inaccurate (due to bad memory, editorialising, or something like that).
A simple energy equation can show it. The energy contained in a 7.62mm bullet, even if absolutely all of it is imparted to the target with no lost energy whatsoever (a physical impossibility that, among other things, assumes zero penetration and zero entropy), will not knock someone into their air. A Mythbusters episode explored the science of knockback, and found that even a .50BMG round with no overpenetration would make someone jerk back... but no more than a few inches. But yes, gore happens. In my current game, I have quite horrible things happen in combat. Aside from anything else, targets tend not to die instantly, or quietly. A deadly wound doesn't mean the target has been instantly killed; it just means the wound is too severe to treat successfully. So they gurgle and moan out their last moments as blood floods into their lungs, or pumps out the ragged hole in their throats. Be interesting to see how many people decide to shoot them again, or decide they'll try to not kill next time. In any case, I don't do it to discourage killing, or to be gratuitous... just because that's what happens. Killing isn't clean, no matter what the movies tell us. As for being splattered with blood, yeah, that happens. It's called 'blowback', and will happen regardless of whether there's noticeable blood or not; that is, there'll be a spray of microsopic blood droplets from the wound, even if you don't see anything come out. When hitting just right, the pressure of the bullet striking will force viscera out of the hole as well. Won't always happen, but it can. (So a word of warning to those runners who like execution-style hits: burn your clothes afterwards, 'cause you'll be wearing their DNA.) |
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Oct 3 2006, 09:36 AM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ah, Mythbusters. Nothing like using a pig corpse to demonstrate something a few seconds of math would have sufficed for. Reminds me of one of Tesla's comments about Edison…
~J |
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Oct 3 2006, 10:03 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492 |
Or just go Au Naturale and take a brisk shower. |
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Oct 3 2006, 10:51 AM
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#9
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Mythbusters is a neat show, as long as people remember it's entertainment, not really scientific experimentation.
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Oct 3 2006, 03:16 PM
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#10
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
It's like "science meets that crazy kid that lived two doors down from you in middle school". I love it.
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Oct 3 2006, 04:00 PM
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#11
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
true, but few people have the time to truely visualize what the math is talking about. shooting said pig makes for a very visual display of what happens (or not happens as the case may be). allso, said vietcong in the story was running. could they have buildt up enough speed so that when they got shot they tripped and so on? as in, its not the bullets energy itself that did it, but what other kinetic energy the body had stored up at said moment. as for the altitude, most likely the person telling the story was high on adrenaline at the moment. |
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Oct 3 2006, 04:23 PM
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#12
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If they were running downhill I could see a spectacular tumble, but "unreliable witness" is the only other non-explosives-involving plausible scenario I can see.
~J |
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Oct 3 2006, 05:04 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
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Oct 3 2006, 06:52 PM
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#14
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
What did Tesla say about Edison, please? -K. |
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Oct 3 2006, 07:30 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
There was a lot of (Al) Gore in Futurama :D.
But, seriously, the real gory stuff is in the descriptions of the trench warfare in World War I. |
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Oct 3 2006, 08:12 PM
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#16
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I have a series of medical journal articles which detail gunshot wounds by different types of weapons & ammo. Most of the illos are diagrammatic, but still get the point across as to the amount of internal carnage these weapons can do.
I have used them from time to time in gaming sessions to help players understand just how that seemingly small projectile tore such a big hole in their character leaving them with only a box or two on their condition monitor. |
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Oct 3 2006, 08:36 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I've pimped Ogrish.Com here before -- they've got a great picture and video archive of corpses that have been corpse-fied by various means.
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Oct 3 2006, 08:44 PM
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#18
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ah, the US military and their overlapping equipment codes... |
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Oct 3 2006, 09:02 PM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
"If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search […] I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor." ~J |
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Oct 3 2006, 09:13 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
There's a vast difference between knowing something based on the math/calculations, and having it proven to you. Not in terms of how it actually works in real life, but in terms of how confident people are in the belief that their impression of something is correct.
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Oct 3 2006, 09:28 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, there isn't. There may be a difference between having something proven to you and having something demonstrated to you, but that's a different matter altogether.
~J |
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Oct 3 2006, 09:59 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
That's an awesome piece of information which I was glad to learn. If I can get my hands on Hard Rain again I'll type up that whole paragraph for posterity here. |
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Oct 4 2006, 12:19 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 23-August 06 Member No.: 9,205 |
Unfortunately, blood is actually kinda difficult to wash off skin. But I can dig the idea of naked shadowrunning. It's a whole new genre. |
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Oct 4 2006, 12:22 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 23-August 06 Member No.: 9,205 |
Hehe. I haven't seen the pig corpse one -- in this case, they were shooting Buster (poor guy). Equations and maths aside, there's a lot to be said for seeing a human-shaped thing (that weighs, if I remember right, the same as a person of similar size) being hit by a .50 bullet... and merely falling down due to being overbalanced. Not even pushed back far enough to be prostrate, either, just falling down where he was. Maybe a few inhces of knockback, and that's it. That said, the bullet lodged in his spine, so anyone hit by the same round would be dead, dead, dead. But still in the same place they were upon getting hit! ^_^
I concur on both counts. |
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Oct 4 2006, 02:05 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
?! A .50 BMG bullet did not fully penetrate the crash test dummy? That's very, very weird. The M33 Ball round can penetrate 21mm of armor steel at 500 meters. Any human hit by one is going to have a big hole blown right through him/her, regardless of body armor or just about anything else. |
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