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> Do cyberlimbs feel sensation?
emo samurai
post Oct 3 2006, 09:25 PM
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Do they? If not, I don't know why the hell someone would get one. If they do... wtf?
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Moon-Hawk
post Oct 3 2006, 09:35 PM
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Well, the human senses that would apply to a cyberlimb are:
Tactition - the sense of pressure
Thermoception - the sense of temperature
Nociception - the sense of pain
Proprioception - the sense of body position

Modern prosthetic limbs have (at best) a few small areas of tactition and/or thermoception, but zero of the other two. But SR cyberlimbs have DNI, which I'm sure gives them full range (or better) of these four senses (as well as an essence cost). That said, it would seem a trivial modification to put an upper limit or cutoff on the nociception, and I believe there is some old-edition fluff to support this.

Would you care to go into a little more detail about the "wtf?" part of your question?
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Tekumel
post Oct 3 2006, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (More Cyberware News article link on Dumpshock.com)
When Sullivan's chest was touched he "had a sensation of touch to different parts of his hand and arm," the institute said. "The patient had substituted sensation of touch, graded pressure, sharp-dull and thermal sensation."


If our tech can do this now, I would imagine 65 years of study in the field would be able to translate pressure on the surface of the cyberarm to nervous impulses, especially in non-obvious cyberlimbs, which are covered in some sort of synthetic or vatgrown skin aren't they?
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emo samurai
post Oct 3 2006, 09:43 PM
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The "wtf" had to do with the fact that every picture of a cyberlimb I've knowingly seen showed them to be hard and metallic. This doesn't fit with the idea of them having sensation.
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Ranneko
post Oct 3 2006, 11:37 PM
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So? Why does that prevent them from having small sensors in them to detect that kind of thing?

Pain is an abstracted way of monitoring the damage the limb has taken.
The others are all just sensory feeds.
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Anythingforenoug...
post Oct 4 2006, 04:38 AM
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The fact that the surface is hard, even going so far as to have that surface coated with DiKote [and I can't be the only one here who has done that little trick] would not prevent the inclusion of sensors that duplicate everything found in a natural arm-not with the level of technology in Shadowrun. Also, it would be possible to adjust the feeds so that the level of sensation is caped-preventing agony as result of damage (including shocks and burns).

AFE :nuyen:
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emo samurai
post Oct 4 2006, 04:40 AM
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I'd say you could edit pain out completely with cyberware.
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Ranneko
post Oct 4 2006, 05:08 AM
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Yes you could, but that defeats the purpose of pain.

Pain is a good thing to have, it lets you know when things are broken. I would expect the pain to be capped and it would be possible to turn it off, but pain would still be something you WANT to be available as an output in a cyberlimb.

EDIT: You could also have a HUD display for your arm if you had cybereyes or linked it to goggles, which would allow you to remove the pain. This does raise an idea as to why you might have your cyberlimbs as part of your PAN. And what a hacker could to do them.
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emo samurai
post Oct 4 2006, 05:10 AM
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If you have smartlink, you could have pain replaced by a life bar or something. Life turned into a videogame! You even get extra lives... of a sort.
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Domino
post Oct 4 2006, 05:11 AM
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This couldnt have gone into your do you wish cyber/bio were real thread why exactly?
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emo samurai
post Oct 4 2006, 05:14 AM
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Because it's a separate question about whether cyberlimbs feel sensation and would have derailed the existing thread.
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Ranneko
post Oct 4 2006, 05:15 AM
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Because he is Emo Samurai.

He even asked if he could get his named in all caps for god's sake.

Why would you expect rational behaviour from him?
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emo samurai
post Oct 4 2006, 05:15 AM
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That's EMO SAMURAI to you.
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Domino
post Oct 4 2006, 05:22 AM
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So do we get a can cyberlims come in different colors thread next?
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emo samurai
post Oct 4 2006, 05:34 AM
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No, because that's obvious. I asked this because cyberlimbs are always these hulking chrome-and-steel monstrosities in the pictures; one could never picture them having sensation.
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Domino
post Oct 4 2006, 05:37 AM
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Its called suspension of disbelief. They wouldnt be very useful if they didnt have sensation.
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hyzmarca
post Oct 4 2006, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (Ranneko @ Oct 4 2006, 12:08 AM)
Yes you could, but that defeats the purpose of pain.

Pain is a good thing to have, it lets you know when things are broken. I would expect the pain to be capped and it would be possible to turn it off, but pain would still be something you WANT to be available as an output in a cyberlimb.

You know, there are actuall congenital conditions that cause insensitivity or indifference to pain.

horrific conditions, really. Babies who can't fell pain or who don't respond to it in the normal manner tend do things like chew through their lips, eat their own fingers, place body parts onto hot stoves, stick things into their eyes, and etc. just because they don't know any better.

It might make a decent Edge or Flaw if it wasn't so useful in combat. No pain modifiers but horrific childhood scars and mandatory cyberimplants due to severe and cronic self-induced injuries.
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Crusher Bob
post Oct 4 2006, 06:20 AM
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One of the possibilities for modeling pressure sensitivity in cyberlims would be a thin, pressure sensitive film. The limb itself can be hard, it is the film that provides the pressure information. Just like you canfee pressure when someone presses on your forehead .
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Critias
post Oct 4 2006, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE (EMO SAMURAI)
No, because that's obvious. I asked this because cyberlimbs are always these hulking chrome-and-steel monstrosities in the pictures; one could never picture them having sensation.

Ah, but those are just the obvious ones. Who's to say half the normal looking characters in other images don't have cyberlimbs, too, but just higher grade stuff that's made to look more natural?
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eidolon
post Oct 4 2006, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (EMO SAMURAI @ Oct 4 2006, 12:34 AM)
No, because that's obvious. I asked this because cyberlimbs are always these hulking chrome-and-steel monstrosities in the pictures; one could never picture them having sensation.

Ah, but those are just the obvious ones. Who's to say half the normal looking characters in other images don't have cyberlimbs, too, but just higher grade stuff that's made to look more natural?

Exactly. Synthetic cyberlimbs have always been a hell of a lot more common in my games (and game world) than the obvious ones.
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emo samurai
post Oct 4 2006, 02:19 PM
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It makes sense to have non-obvious ones for social reasons, anyway.

And why would you get a cyberlimb if you weren't an amputee or a street sam?
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Ranneko
post Oct 4 2006, 02:24 PM
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Self-improvement, fashion statement, quick and easy improvement in your own capabilities, because you really like gadgets, because it lets you do your job better. Not likely to be common choices, but valid reasons.
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eidolon
post Oct 4 2006, 02:48 PM
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Yup. A rich corporate lackey with a penchant for racquetball could improve his game, for example.
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Shrike30
post Oct 4 2006, 05:29 PM
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Hell, I'm playing a character at the moment who's into pushing himself as far as he can go towards the limits of human performance. That definitely involves cyber.
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 4 2006, 10:20 PM
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Remember that since nanotech is getting more common in 2070, you could also use nanites on your arm for sensors to recieve that information. Ares was doing it in 64 for security systems.

For a few ideas on how it all works, read the end of 2XS, where , not to ruin the story for you, someone gets a cyberarm and can't feel it, has absolutely no control over it, and just sits there looking at it, until someone turns it on. Gets the whole pins and needles feeling for a sec, then can feel the arm just like normal.

Also try the 2nd edition Cybertechnology book (which I love). The section of Hatchetman's reviewing what cyber he's added over the years, and having some issue with phantom limb syndrome. He'll fell his arm in one postion, look over, and it's sitting differently, jsut because he's not paying attention to it, and it relates differently than his meat arm did. Had some issue with dissasoctiation because of cyber eyes coming through with a weird, video like resolution. Good stuff.
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