Limit build skills Options

[Garrowolf]

Since most devices have a rating that goes from 1-6, I have limited all build skills that produce a device with a rating to the lower of their build skill or whatever skill the device normally would use. For example you would use the lower of software or hacking to create hacking software. Now I could see a few exceptions made to this but I don't think you should be able to build something with a rating higher then the build skill. It just seems that in order to create a masterpiece it should take more then a long time in extended tests. There should be limits.

[Jaid]

a few things things:

1) so i can't default to make a rating 1 object?

2) what about edge

3) why would the skill involved in using the item have matter?

[edit] 4) what about stuff you can build that doesn't actually have ratings per se? [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Oct 4 2006, 03:29 AM

[Garrowolf]

Well I would never allow anyone to default to build something useful anyway. I just can't see someone that doesn't know what they are doing building something from scratch. Now I can see someone figuring out how to use an existing object because it's form would suggest it's function and use.

I don't know - can you suggest anything of any complexity that you could default to build? (obviously I'm not talking about clubs)

Edge might give you more successes on the test but not effect what you know how to build. It's not like you can get lucky and happen to know more programming for a second and then forget it later but I can see someone get into the zone and finish quickly.

Well I would think that if you know more about the use of a skill then you can more likely create something to help it. For example I might be able to build a crappy digital multimeter but I don't know enough about electricity yet to make one that would be better and more helpful because I don't know enough about what it is trying to read (yet!). This is one of the reasons that there is a Management Information Systems degree - the programmers needed more knowledge of the business side of things in order to write useful programs for business. They could write something before but it tended not to be as useful to businessmen because they didn't know what was needed.

As for things that don't have a rating I would suggest that the GM look at the skill rating table and eyeball a necessary skill level. Or don't worry about it for non rated devices.

The main focus of this was actually software because otherwise everyone would always have rating 6 software after a while with out progression or limits.

[Jaid]

ummmm..... you're worried about *software*?


allow me to reassure you:

by the time your team hacker has finished writing all his rating 6 software, SOTA will have reduced whatever he started with to rating 1. or maybe a rating 0 program that only lets him default to skill.

and everyone else in the group will have already retired from shadowrunning (Assuming they're still alive of course).

and will have just *bought* their programs like any sane person, because they aren't even all that expensive, and they are all available at chargen at rating 6.

seriously, don't worry about your hacker writing his own software unless you have seriously modified the interval on those extended tests...

as far as examples of things people should be able to make crappy versions of:

rating 1 bow.
rating 1 explosives (bad idea i know, but certainly possible)

and various other random items, given access to appropriate knowledge skills, or possibly just step-by-step instructions from the matrix.

(for example, i have a cousin who built a directional mic when he was about 15 years old from components he bought in a store. and i assure you, he doesn't rate in at skill rating 1. as another example, i have built an electric motor from an appropriate kit, and once again, i don't have skill 1. with a good source of information, i bet you could make a lot of really simple stuff, provided you have instructions. given the frequent availability of instructions through the matrix, i think it would be much easier than you are suggesting).

[Geekkake]

Ultimately, it seems like Garrowolf is looking for ways to make mages even more powerful, and mundanes less. He should be playing Forgotten Realms or something.

[laughingowl]

Garrowolf:

First RAW:

Build / Repair doesn’t allow a character to 'make' something, he technically needs to plans, etc.

(page 125)

[Ranneko]

I always assumed that the month long test time was not literally a month of working on it 24/7, but it was more working on it 9-5 each day for a month.

[laughingowl]

[Garrowolf]

OK, I can see your point about defaulting so I guess would allow it for rating 1 devices. Thanks for the feedback!

I actually did lower the intervals on the programming tests but that is another subject.

The month long interval IS based on 9-5 days not 24/7.

I don't know what the SOTA rules are for SR4. If you do then please tell me. I was also using the skill requirement as a way of maintaining SOTA. You can't maintain SOTA on a program that you can't maintain in the first place.

I am using the requirement for having a skill as a limit for rating as a replacement for the 'needs plans' clause. I guess if someone wanted to do that then they could use the plans. I thought that that part was more to do with keeping PCs from building crazy things that aren't allowed.

[laughingowl]

[Garrowolf]

Um ... the dice mechanic supports what I'm saying. You are rolling per interval. period.

No where does it say that it is an endurance test to do these things. People have to eat and sleep. They are jumping up to the next unit of time for ease of use. If they wanted to make it that complicated I suppose they could declare the interval in increasing numbers of hours and never mention days and weeks.

If your under a day I can see keeping up how long they are working on something or you could say they lost a day to doing something else but beyond a day I think that there is some wiggle room for normal human functions.

Your over thinking it and it sounds like being a little cruel to your players.

Part of my idea for limiting software ratings is based on the forgery rules. I thought that they made sense and carried them over. I didn't just make them up.

I dropped the intervals on software considerably but increased the threshold. My reasoning was that I wanted any hacker characters to be spending excess time working on programs. If you make the interval too high then they would never bother and just buy it and that just breaks the feel of hackers for me.

I was even thinking of making it where there were no hacking programs for sale and you had to write your own that were designed around how you thought so they weren't much help to others. They were not user friendly either.

[laughingowl]

[Ranneko]

Depends, theoretically a low rating program could still do everything but have a terrible terrible interface and is also inefficient, and a high ranking program is powerful and has an intuitive interface. That is why the rating of a program is a rather abstract thing.

[Garrowolf]

hmmm ... I could see that. Skill limits your program rating. I like.

well in my group we decided that since anyone with a comm and some good programs could do some hacking we got rid of hackers. They exist as NPCs but they have become very specialized ( a common one in my game is SIN Deckers - they focus on building fake IDs and maintaining them for an upkeep price).

Then we made Technomancers better by allowing them to write normal code and use normal software with out the restrictions (the 'retro experience' comment) and normal skill use. Then they got Complex forms as a form of long term threading on top of those programs. You roll logic + hacking + software for most things in my version (or the appropriate skill) and compared it verses usually higher thresholds. The Technomancer got to add their complex form on top of that.

The limits were that the program they were modifying couldn't have a rating higher then their skill (ie you can't have a rating 6 program and a software and hacking skill of 4 each) because they didn't understand it as clearly. Then your complex forms were limited to half your resonance rounded up. This caused them to keep trying to increase their skills and resonance whereas before they couldn't figure out why they should bother much of the time because they could just use purchased software.

They were better then most hackers and they topped off higher but they weren't completely out of the ball park.

I also allowed them to buy sprites as a complex form on top of an agent with the same restrictions as a program. They had to pay for the entire rating (agent + complex form) in karma though. This means that they could have a lot of copies of an agent program but only have a few actual sprites. I threw out the services and limited time because it seemed too much like magic. I wanted them to shine in their own way.

On the flip side I got rid of all that stuff about wireless cyberware. Cyberware was connected to your CNS - not rigged remotely. You could hack a sammy's comm and get status reports on his cyberware but not take it over. (you could record what he saw though)

[laughingowl]

Another thing I have seriousl considered doing for 'programs' (and perhaps most things with ratings).

Adjust the pricing to be Rating^2 * X Nuyen.

That scales much better and makes the 'best' expensive.

As it is now, if you are a rich boy, it very foolish to have anything but a 6 across the board, which CLEARLY is not whats intended.

Now if a rating 6 'common use' program was

Rating^2 * 25 = 900 is still 'cheap' but alot more reasonable for 'the best' available then the 500 that is standard.

Hell I could consider going with listed prices just changed to (rating^2).. Then again I come from the days when Hot deckers dreamed of a million+ nuyen deck.

[rangda]

[deek]

In my game, I limit all skill intensive rolls by skill. Matrix programs have an additional houserule that the program does nothing but set the cap to successes and instead the hacker rolls skill + attribute for tests.

So, a hacker wanting to break into a node on the fly (normally Electronic Warfare + Exploit program) would instead roll Electronic Warfare + Logic, with the Exploit program AND the E. Warfare skill as a limit to total successes.

This gives me a fine tuning capability. Someone with a 6 E. Warfare but using an Exploit 2, will only be able to get two success, showing that even though the hacker is awesome, the program limits their abilities. with a 2 E. Warfare but 6 Exploit, the program is top notch, but the hacker isn't able to use it as well, again limiting it to 2 total successes.

All in all, this has worked out quite nicely, and puts the hackers Logic back into the mix, as it should (picked the house rule up from Serbitar).

[Moon-Hawk]

In the past (previous editions), any interval past 1 day implied an 8-hour work day. There were even rules for putting in overtime. (up to four hours, I believe)
I think that if they had intended "1 month" to be 24-7 rather than 8 hour days, they would have said, "720 hours".
Now granted, assuming they meant 8-hour days, they could have said "240 hours" rather than "1 month", but then we would all be bitching about that, too.

[Kyoto Kid]

...For software coding, I think we have to wait until the UnWired supplement comes out. As with Matrix (SR3) and the Virtual Realities supplements in SR2, complete rules for software programming (which were not really detailed in the earlier BBBs either) were introduced.

I am sure that "Arsenal" will also expand on build and upgrade tests for non-matrix hardware as well.

This is part of why I am waiting until most of the major supplements to be released before setting up a campaign in SR4.