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> Guns 101, Confused...
SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 01:21 AM
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Could someone explain to the different kind of guns?

I know what a pistol and a shotgun is.

I'm confused as to the difference in between a rifle, a SMG (what's a submachine gun? Is is just a gun who fires in automatic?) a cannon and other types.

Also, what does a Ruger Super Warhawk looks like? I can't find any decent pictures of the weaponery in Shadowrun.

Thanks.
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imperialus
post Oct 5 2006, 01:34 AM
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A SMG is basically a weapon designed to fire pistol rounds full auto. A rifle chambers larger rounds. For comparison go to the gun counter at a Walmart and ask to see the difference between a 22 short (pistol round) and a 22 long (rifle round) and remember that these are the smallest caliber of bullet you'll commonly see. A better comparison might be a 9mm (found in the MP5) to a 7.62mm NATO round (found in the M16). Cannons are really just big versions of any other gun from 20mm all the way up to 16" navel guns. During WWII at least Cannons refered to weapons firing explosive shells usually put on airplanes. They were designed to disable other planes and occasionally light vehicals since they could tear the workings up better than a solid slug could. I think that now though anything over 50 caliber is concidered a cannon.

As for a Ruger Super Warhawk... Go to google and search for a "Long Barreled 357 Magnum" Should give you a pretty good idea.

I know for a fact though that there are people on the forum who know FAR more about guns than me so I'll leave it to them to go into detail because I'll get something wrong and make a fool of myself in the process (assuming I havn't already).
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 5 2006, 01:37 AM
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The most basic information you can easily find on Wikipedia (you can start here or even a standard dictionary -- though the latter are infamously crap for correct terms.

One might assume the Super Warhawk is similar in looks to the actual Super Redhawk. Still, it's 50+ years from now. Aesthetics change.
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blakkie
post Oct 5 2006, 01:42 AM
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Because of the SS rate of fire I always assumed a Super Warhawk was single-action revolver, which would make it closer to an updated version of the Super Blackhawk (somewhat older kissing cousin of the Redhawk) with the somewhat different asthetics as shown in the book.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 5 2006, 01:50 AM
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Never a fool as long as you acknowledge that you may be wrong.
QUOTE (imperialus)
22 short (pistol round) and a 22 long (rifle round)

What you are probably thinking of as "22 short" includes a variety of .22 caliber rimfire cartridges, with actual names like ".22 Short", ".22 Long" and ".22 Long Rifle", of which the latter is, AFAIK, the most common and widely used (even in handguns). What you are most likely thinking of as the "22 long" is the .223 Remington round, (nearly) identical to the 5.56x45mm NATO round that the M16 is chambered in. There are plenty of other calibers out there that begin with ".22" as well, so it pays to be specific about what caliber you mean.

Here's a .22 Long Rifle round next to a 9x19mm Luger round (the latter being very common in handguns, and even more so in SMGs in the Western world), and here's the 9x19mm next to a .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO cartridge.

QUOTE (imperialus)
7.62mm NATO round (found in the M16)

The M16-series of rifles are chambered in the 5.56x45mm NATO round. The 7.62x51mm NATO, which is (nearly?) identical to the .308 Winchester round, is common in machine guns and sniper rifles.

QUOTE (imperialus)
Cannons are really just big versions of any other gun 20mm (such as the 20mm cannon found on many modern APC's) and up.

Pretty much, yeah. 20mm is often considered the bore diameter limit for a cannon. Of course there are other minor issues, such as why a high-velocity 25mm grenade launcher isn't a cannon -- and what, exactly, is it then...

[Edit]And blakkie is, of course, right about the likely origins of the Warhawk. Got the colors of my hawks messed up.[/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 5 2006, 01:54 AM
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 01:57 AM
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I don't have access to Wikipedia, China blocks it. :-(.

Okay, thanks for the reply.

But I don't know anything about guns, so what you are talking about right now is WAY ahead of me.

Could someone vulgarise a bit please?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 5 2006, 01:58 AM
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Holy fucking shit!

Then scratch the above, my only advice is to expatriate ASAP.
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Deamon_Knight
post Oct 5 2006, 01:58 AM
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Thats a dozy of a question.

You have to have basic understanding of guns for this all to make sense, but I'll take a stab at this.

You know what a pistol is, and what a shotgun is, but have you fired either, or handled the ammo for either? If not, then its time to go to hit the internet.

This is a good site.

http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

This is a good site.

In simplist terms, a pistol fires pistol ammo (.38, .45, 9MM, 10MM etc.), and is usually semiautomatic (everytime you pull the trigger the weapon loads and fires a cartridge), and fed from a removeable magazine (Clip is the common term). Revolvers (and I believe a Ruger Warhawk is a revolver) are simliar, but may not be semiauto.

A Submachinegun is a weapon that fires pistol ammunition fully automaticiallly (As long as the trigger is held down, the weapon continues to load and fire ammunition untill the magazine is empty). An example of a submachinegun would be the Thompson (Tommy Gun), this fires .45 ammunition, the same ammo that the Colt 45 uses.

Generically, Rifles are weapons that are Rifled, that is they have spiral grooves inside the barrel that impart spin to the bullet and thus add stability. Nearly all modern firearms are Rifled in this way, so "rifle" is commonly used to descibe all non pistols, but more technically is used to describe long arms that fire larger ammo than pistol (Winchester .308, for example), bigger bullets AND more powder. These are commonly semiautomatic, but not always. Bolt action, manually working a lever to load the next round is common. We now think of Rifles as hunting weapons, as Rifles were replaced by Assault Rifles in most modern armies after WW2. During WW2, the main battle rifle was the M-1 Garand, chambered in .30-06.

Machine Guns usually fire Rifle sized ammo and are fully automatic. The M-2 fielded by the US in WW2 is .50 caliber Machine Gun, developed by Moses Browning. Another Example is the Vickers Heavy Machine Gun, fielded by the British.

Assault Rifles were developed after WW2, based on the premise of giving infantry controlable automatic weapons. A fully automatic .30-06 is very powerful and difficult to control. Assault Rifles typically fire rounds that are bigger than pistol rounds but smaller than traditional rifle rounds, trying to hit a balance of power and manageable recoil. You should be familar with these, think M-16, or AK-47.

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Deamon_Knight
post Oct 5 2006, 01:59 AM
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I think Austere may have nailed it.
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE
In simplist terms, a pistol fires pistol ammo (.38, .45, 9MM, 10MM etc.), and is usually semiautomatic (everytime you pull the trigger the weapon loads and fires a cartridge), and fed from a removeable magazine (Clip is the common term). Revolvers (and I believe a Ruger Warhawk is a revolver) are simliar, but may not be semiauto.

A Submachinegun is a weapon that fires pistol ammunition fully automaticiallly (As long as the trigger is held down, the weapon continues to load and fire ammunition untill the magazine is empty). An example of a submachinegun would be the Thompson (Tommy Gun), this fires .45 ammunition, the same ammo that the Colt 45 uses.

Generically, Rifles are weapons that are Rifled, that is they have spiral grooves inside the barrel that impart spin to the bullet and thus add stability. Nearly all modern firearms are Rifled in this way, so "rifle" is commonly used to descibe all non pistols, but more technically is used to describe long arms that fire larger ammo than pistol (Winchester .308, for example), bigger bullets AND more powder. These are commonly semiautomatic, but not always. Bolt action, manually working a lever to load the next round is common. We now think of Rifles as hunting weapons, as Rifles were replaced by Assault Rifles in most modern armies after WW2. During WW2, the main battle rifle was the M-1 Garand, chambered in .30-06.

Machine Guns usually fire Rifle sized ammo and are fully automatic. The M-2 fielded by the US in WW2 is .50 caliber Machine Gun, developed by Moses Browning. Another Example is the Vickers Heavy Machine Gun, fielded by the British.

Assault Rifles were developed after WW2, based on the premise of giving infantry controlable automatic weapons. A fully automatic .30-06 is very powerful and difficult to control. Assault Rifles typically fire rounds that are bigger than pistol rounds but smaller than traditional rifle rounds, trying to hit a balance of power and manageable recoil. You should be familar with these, think M-16, or AK-47.


Ah! This I understand.

SoP.
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Kyoto Kid
post Oct 5 2006, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace)
Also, what does a Ruger Super Warhawk looks like? I can't find any decent pictures of the weaponery in Shadowrun.

Thanks.

...actually go to the Ruger site and check out the both Super Redhawk & Super Blackhawk. These are basically today's RL predecessor of the Super Warhawk. The single action Blackhawk is more "wild west" in style (which is what my namesake KK uses). The Redhawk has a more modern look (possibly closer to the Warhawk) and is double action. The Super Warhawk is definitely the most awesome handgun in the game, especially when loaded with EXEX or Gel Rounds (the latter if you want to keep the body count down but still take the oppos out)

If I knew how to embed links from an external site, I would include them.
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 02:07 AM
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So Machine guns pack more power than submachine guns. right?

How fast does a bullet travel? It's in m/second right?

How does bulletproof vest work?
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 5 2006, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE (Deamon_Knight @ Oct 4 2006, 08:58 PM)
Assault Rifles were developed after WW2, based on the premise of giving infantry controlable automatic weapons.

During, actually. The Germans fielded the Sturmgewehr MP44 and Fall… fall… FG42 before the end of the war.

SoP: "machine gun" is a vague term. In popular usage, it is any automatic weapon (and is thus basically meaningless). That said, in more technical usage, it will pack more power than submachine guns, firing rifle cartridges and being intended for sustained fire.

Bullets travel all kinds of speeds, which can be measured in any distance-per-time unit combination you desire. The most common are meters/second or, for the heathens, feet/second.

~J
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 5 2006, 02:14 AM
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There's no way we can tell you all of this stuff on a forum like this, and the little knowledge we could let you in on might just make you more confused if you can't then check up on the actual facts because the CCP is scared shitless of their subjects knowing things.

And that said...
"Power" is subjective, but in most applications, rifle cartridges (which are what machine guns fire) can be called more powerful than handgun cartridges (which are what submachine guns fire).

Right after leaving the barrel of the firearm that fired them, bullets often travel anywhere from 250 meters per second to 1100 meters per second. Handguns often clock at the lower end of this spectrum and rifles at the higher end, but that is by no means always the case.

A bulletproof vest works by stopping bullets and reducing the blunt trauma from the impact. Is HowStuffWorks blocked in China too?

[Fallschirmjäger Gewehr 42]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 5 2006, 02:15 AM
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Crusher Bob
post Oct 5 2006, 02:22 AM
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Pistol bullets typically travel between 275 and 450 meters per second (the speed of sound is around 340 meters per second). Typical 9mm pistol loads go around 350 meters per second (slightly faster than sound).

Rifle bullets usually travel around 600-1200 meters per second (2-3 times the speed of sound). A bullet from a 5.56mm assualt rifle will go at around 900 meters/second.

Also worth noting is the weight of the bullet itself. A rifle bullet will typicall weight between 3.5 and 12 grams. Pistols typically fire slightly heavier bullets with typical weights from maybe 6.5 to 15 grams.

[edit]
I hope I got all those conversions to that heathen metric system right. That velocity for the 5.56 looks a bit low.
[/edit]
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 02:22 AM
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No, it's not blocked, they're not that bad. :)

Well, I understand guns better now. The whole thing is rather confusing for a neophyte though. As you've got different names for different types, and you also have the brands, and some terms mean multiple types of guns.

I was wondering why protetion is under two forms:

Ballistic and Impact. Protection is protection, isn't? I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two types of protection.

As I understand it, armor disperse the kinetic energy of a projectile on an area, which prevents penetration.

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blakkie
post Oct 5 2006, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
Revolvers (and I believe a Ruger Warhawk is a revolver) are simliar, but may not be semiauto.

Should explain further here. The difference between single-action (the Blackhawk) and double-action (Redhawk) is that with a single-action revolver the shooter must manually use their hand to bring the hammer (the little stick that points out the back) back before each shot. This not only gets the hammer ready to fall forward and ignite the primer of the bulllet (BANG!) but also rotates the cylinder so the next round is lined with the barrel read to be fired. With the double-action the shooter just needs to pull the trigger. The first part of pulling the trigger moves the hammer back and rotates the next round into place.

That is why SS classification for the Ruger Warhawk, you need to spend the extra Simple Action drawing the hammer back. Where as most modern revolvers are double-action, and would get the SA classification in Shadowrun.
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blakkie
post Oct 5 2006, 02:29 AM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace)
Ballistic and Impact. Protection is protection, isn't? I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two types of protection.

As I understand it, armor disperse the kinetic energy of a projectile on an area, which prevents penetration.

Try not to think about this too much. Shadowrun rules are NOT a realistic weapons simulation in any meaningful sense. :)
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 02:31 AM
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QUOTE
Should explain further here. The difference between single-action (the Blackhawk) and double-action (Redhawk) is that with a single-action revolver the shooter must manually use their hand to bring the hammer (the little stick that points out the back) back before each shot. This not only gets the hammer ready to fall forward and ignite the primer of the bulllet (BANG!) but also rotates the cylinder so the next round is lined with the barrel read to be fired. With the double-action the shooter just needs to pull the trigger. The first part of pulling the trigger moves the hammer back and rotates the next round into place.


That's really interesting actually and well explained.

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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 5 2006, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace)
[...] they're not that bad.

Oh, they are. Consider yourself lucky there's no "How Democracy works" article on there.

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
I hope I got all those conversions to that heathen metric system right. That velocity for the 5.56 looks a bit low.

Yep, it's correct. 3025fps (M855 out of an M16A2) = 922m/s.
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 02:45 AM
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So since some bullets travel faster than the speed of sound, if someone were to shoot at you, you would be hit before you would hear the detonation?

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De Badd Ass
post Oct 5 2006, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace)
I don't have access to Wikipedia, China blocks it. :-(.


China blocks Wikipedia, and lets Dumpshock! Long live the Cultural Revolution, and phooey to anyone who says China doesn't have its priorities in order.
[/joking]

[no joke]
I feel for you!
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SeekerOfPeace
post Oct 5 2006, 02:48 AM
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OFF TOPIC:

I hear there's a way to bypass the block if you use the website:

www.answers.com

Haven't tried though.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 5 2006, 02:51 AM
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I'd be careful with that if I were you. Firewalls are one thing, but abduction, holding indefinitely without trial, torture, and "disappearing" are quite another. But I'm sure you know all about that.

Yes, you'd be hit before you heard the shot. No, you wouldn't particularly care at that point. :dead:
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blakkie
post Oct 5 2006, 02:52 AM
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QUOTE (SeekerOfPeace)
So since some bullets travel faster than the speed of sound, if someone were to shoot at you, you would be hit before you would hear the detonation?

Yup. Assuming you are near enough to hear it at all. Some of the bigger caliber rifles, like the .50 cal sniper rifle, fires projectiles fast enough and big enough to rip you appart 2 to 2.5km (1.2-1.5 miles) away. At that distance, depending on terrain and weather, it is quite possible you'd never hear it fired even if they missed. This is actually what happened with the longest confirmed sniper kill made in Afganistan (something like greater than 2400m). It was the third shot that killed him. He never even realised he was being shot at till the second shot, then he started running....in a straight line, which is what got him killed. If he had been zagging and zigging, given that it was taking nearly 2 second for he bullet to reach him, it would have been a really, really lucky shot to hit him.
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