ED->SR Hypothesizing, Ristul the passion of megacorps Options

[Herald of Verjig...]

In a moment of clarity, I noticed that the megacorp philosophy appears to be founded not just on needless bureaucracy (Dis), but also betrayal for self-interest (Vestrial) and a general philosophy of greed at any cost to others (Raggok).

Since those three passions have been in a state of slow absorption into Ristul since early scourge 4th age, a non-trivial portion of each has already been consumed and is now churning together in the massive soul-blender that is Ristul.

This just brings up disturbing questions about Saeder-Krupp and every other corp that is owned by something that really should recognize what is being fed by their business model.

[fistandantilus4....]

I'd point out that like most other magic in ED and SR, magic seems driven by belief. I'd think there would have to be someone who believed in the passions in those forms in order for them to exist like that. Evidence Harlequin's interaction with what appears to be Vestrial in Harlequin's back. Also, Chorallis is the passion of greed, not Raggok. Raggok is vengence and pain.

That being said, in my games, I've always had very quite cults of Dis and Vestrial working behind the scenes to bring back their passions, especially through the megacorps. Lowfyr tends to micro manage though, so I think he'd sniff them out pretty quick in his own ranks at least. The other corps however ... fair game.

[hyzmarca]

In general, I imagine that the Passions have been straved for karma during the downcycle and have been usurped by the Totems and the Idols, which retain a great deal of metahuman worship and with is metahuman karma. However karma starvation is not enough to kill a free spirit on the order of the Passions, they are too weak to play an active role in things but they are still around somewhere. Some shadowtalk in the Tir books suggests that some Immortal Elves and their protegè's.

I imagine that among the Earthdawn era deities the only one that still retains significant power is Death, for obvious reasons. While the mana level may be too low yet for her to be kicking ass and taking names, it is just as likely that she is keeping a low profile while performing her cosmic duties and plotting against those with the power and inclination to imprison her again.

As for Saeder Krupp, dragons don't worship the Passions and I imagine that they don't fear them, either. Certianly, Great Dragons don't. They understand what the Passions really are better than anyone else and they've lived long enough to see Gods rise and fall and even die. I imagine that somewhere there is a GD who has personally destroyed a metahuman deity.

[FlakJacket]

Well the old Tir Tairngire mentioned that some of the elves were worshiping strange spirits and the phrase Passions was used IIRC, followed by Harlequin commenting that he'd send flowers to the posters funeral. Combine that with Shdows of North Amarica's information that Paladins didn't just have to be warriors but could devote themselves to an ideal or belief and I wouldn't think you should have too much trouble shoe horning them in if that's your thing.

I figure since we've had mentions of them appearing in the books like Harlequin's Back that the IE's and dragons had enough belief/knowledge to keep them active as it were. May not be worship but just knowing they exist could be enough. Figure they're so low powered that they can't manifest physically and even then only appear to someone that already knows about them. At least that's my take in them.

[fistandantilus4....]

IE's could certainly follow them, but even in ED the great dragons were , well, a little amused by people following the Passions. They viewed them more as powerful spirits than anything divine. Kind of ironic considering things like the Church of the Dragon.

There certainly are ways and reasons to say that there could be a ressurgence of passions. There's a few Passion "cults" in our games, although not nearly as strong in ED. The believers bring in other people, and they make a sort of a spirit pact for "questor powers", basically just like the spirit pacts in 4th ed Street Magic, granting a spirit power.

On the Tir note, Ive always wondered where the Telestrians get their information. What immortal is backing them. Two examples:

House of the Sun: Dirk mentions Quinn Harlech to an Telestrian exec, and she knows who he's talking about, although he doesn't.

Rigger3: there's a ship in there that's named after the lost ship in the BloodWood book. Can't recall the name off the top of my head, perhaps someone has a book handy for refernce. Just something that's been bothering me that I just remembered.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Ophis]

Just a random thought, Ristul was to all intents a name given to the corruption of astral space caused by the horrors, at least that's how I read it, would it have been able to survive the down cycle?

Any more solid interpratations on Ristul's nature?

[Grinder]

[Kagetenshi]

Background count exists. Ristul exists. Quod erat demonstrandum.

~J

[Grinder]

Maybe you can explain your theory/ proof with some more words? :)

[Kagetenshi]

I'll do this by proof by contradiction, then:

Proposition: Ristul is dead.

Premise 1: the game information section of the Horrors sourcebook is correct
Premise 2: Magic in the Shadows is correct
Premise 3: SR3 is correct

Background count exists (premise 2).

Tainted or Corrupt areas of astral space are a manifestation of Ristul (premise 1).

Dead astral forms immediately vanish (premise 3)—there are no astral corpses.

If Ristul were deceased, there would be no Tainted or Corrupt areas of astral space.

But, background count exists.

Therefore, Ristul must exist.

~J

Pay no attention to the logic behind the curtain.

[fistandantilus4....]

That's only correct if you assume that all astral corruption/pollution is Ristul. You could go along similar lines that Artificer is/was a metal elemental that was corrupted, therefore all metal elementals are corrputed. You would first have to prove that all astral pollution and corruption is Ristul, which it can't be, since astral pollution can be different. Evidence aspected background count.

Huh!? It's a little old fallacy behind the curtain! :D

[Kagetenshi]

There's a fallacy there, but it isn't the one you cite—I give you the text of Horrors:

[fistandantilus4....]

Sorry, it's been a while since I took my classes in critical thinking so I can't name the particular fallacy.


Ristul can use it's powers in areas where it has manifested

Ristual can manifest in areas classified as tainted or corrupt

The tricky part is the wording, where it says "has manifested", where it should likely say areas where it has manifested are tainted or corrupt.

[Kagetenshi]

Areas where it has manifested is a strict superset of regions classified as either Tainted or Corrupt. The sentence is quite clear about that—the Tainted or Corrupt areas are the areas where it has manifested. Not where it can manifest, where it has manifested.

It wasn't a name you got wrong, IMO the only fallacy in my argument is that I assumed that background count and astral corruption were identical without either giving it as a premise or proving it from my premises. There are strong arguments for it, but it isn't something that, as far as I can tell, can be proven in this sort of sense.

~J

[fistandantilus4....]

yes, but that's not the same as saying that all tainted or corrupted areas are areas where it has manifested.


Background count of a high lebel (5+) could be reasoned to be the same as corruption, where a lower level could be the same for tainted.

[Kagetenshi]

Actually, it is the same as saying that all tainted or corrupted areas are areas where it has manifested :)

It should be noted that in Earthdawn, Ristul appeared as an inky substance, while Magic in the Shadows describes background count as a shimmering or a fog. Whether this indicates a different nature (unlikely, IMO), a lesser degree of corruption, or simply the weak manifestation of Ristul at this point in the manacycle is, at this point, for the reader to decide.

~J

[fistandantilus4....]

As it's written I'd say that you're right. I don't think that's quite how they meant it, and should have been a bit more careful with their wording, but there's really no way to 'prove' that.

I tend to think of the difference in Ristul's particular form of taint in he astral , and normal background count, similar to the difference of say water polluted with just general waste, as opposed to water with say oil (not the bast analogy since oil and water don't mix, but I think you get where I'm going with it).

[Kagetenshi]

When I get home and can look at my copy of Scourge Unending, that ought to give a pretty good idea—if that implies that all astral corruption is Ristul, well, them messing it up twice is less likely :)

(Of course, "when I get home" is mid-November, so if any kind soul with a copy wants to look it up for us… :) )

~J

[fistandantilus4....]

I've got it, but it's also at home. I won't be back here (work) with it until Monday.

[Dawnshadow]

1. If background count is the manifestation of Ristul, then all background count must be tied to Ristul.

2. Background count is created by large amounts of emotion -- positive and negative.

3. By 2, a group of elven virgins who have never suffered an impure thought gathered in a circle singing praises of life, produces a background count. (Aspected towards life)

4. It is unreasonable to believe that a group of elven virgins who have never suffered an impure thought gathered in a circle singing praises of life can manifest Ristul.

5. Because we have a background count which is unrelated to the manifestation of Ristul, background count is not the manifestation of Ristul.

**

This is not to say that all background counts are not the manifestation of Ristul. This is simply to state that manifestations of Ristul may be a proper subset of background counts.

The difference, I expect, is that Earthdawn had a far more strict definition of tainted or corrupted -- specifically, manifestation of Ristul. But, that does not mean that the definition hasn't been.. widened.. in the 6th world, due to differences in magic.

[Kagetenshi]

[Deamon_Knight]

Kage dosen't MITS say that there may aspected background counts? Dosen't that leave it to the players or GM at least to decide what, if any, effect the nonmagical activities of several elf virgins could have on health spells?

Also, If background count is Ristul, dosen't that mean that the Manawarp due to the Edge of the Giasphere in space is REALLY Ristul?

[Ophis]

Ah, but space is a Mana Ebb (YEMV) as mentioned in Street Magic.

I would be tempted to say that Ristul is a specific sort of background count, maybe something like toxic aspected maybe. Mostly I wish it was clearer what Ristul is, is it a thinking being or is it a name given to a particular astral phenomenon? the Horrors book left it kinda in the air for me.

[hyzmarca]

Ristul is more than just background count. It is action eternally corrupting. It takes seat in individuals and consumes them from the inside out but despite being so consumed they remain intact and unharmed, forever a part of Ristul. Toxic Shamen may be examples of Ristular, individuals who are a part Ristul though still seperate, who have had their souls torn apart and remade by the Horror and who revel in his corruption while being tortured by it in unimaginable ways.

In essence, Ristul is everything and every one that is corrupted. It has access to all of their minds and memories; it is, at the very least, the sum of all of these individuals. But it is so much more than the some of its parts. It is both a force of nature and a sentient being at the same time.