 Elemental Assassin's .., A matter of fear |
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 Oct 7 2006, 06:53 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047  |
With the remote service and good intel, elemental make relentless assassin's. Depenant on force their intellengence can be higher than most humans and in some cases very high IQ's.
For mundanes the fear of such spectral killer must poses some threat and apprehension. :eek: How do you think this would manifest on the street? In slang? In culture? In practice of the mega corps and the mage societies? In the minds and actions of mundane runners? |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:13 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
Playing a mage character, I doubt I would send off an Elemental on an assassination mission.
There's too much of a chance it would be captured or otherwise lead the target back to me. "If you're going to kill someone, stick your sword in him." ~ Belgarath the Sorcerer |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:15 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Risky and expensive, for most mundanes the threat of elemental assassins won't be significantly greater than the risk of ordinary assassins (for a couple thousand nuyen you could probably hire a ganger to off most ordinary Joes). More important people already have to be protected against mages, so they're already protected.
~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:17 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
don't summoned spirits carry the astral sig of their summoner?
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Oct 7 2006, 07:26 PM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes.
~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 07:58 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,848 |
isn't there a way to offset that? can masking help?
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Oct 7 2006, 08:21 PM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm not sure. Changing your signature when you initiate might be able to, if you summon the elemental prior to initiating.
~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 09:40 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I would say that the next time you call a bound elemental for a service, it would take on your current signature. If you have a bound elemental present during an initiatory ritual where you change your aura signature, I would say that the change would propagate to the elemental. If the elemental were karma-bound, I would say the same as the above. If the elemental were karma-bound to someone else, I would say that no change would occur as long as it remained assigned to that person. |
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Oct 7 2006, 09:41 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
If your Initiate Grade is high enough, you can conceal the entire elemental, but it can't change the elemental's signature (i.e. yours). EDIT------------ Unless you want to allow Masking to have an additional power. But if Masking can alter a signature, that would open up a small can of worms, from my perspective. |
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Oct 7 2006, 10:01 PM
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#10
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Why? ~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 10:14 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
It is possible to rule either way on the subject. I chose to rule that way because I simply believe it would work that way. "I summon up a bunch of elementals, initiate to change my signature, and dispatch the elementals on murder missions worry-free". Ah, no. If a mage uses Conjuring to capture an elemental, then I also believe that it immediately takes on the mage's signature, although I would rule that the prior mage's signature could be studied for 1 hour per Force point of the elemental. |
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Oct 7 2006, 10:47 PM
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#12
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm wondering what leads you to believe it's possible to rule that way.
As for your example, why no? Not only is it not worry-free (unless the possibility of failure is totally unworrying), it's hideously expensive—it means giving up a significant guaranteed benefit at initiation for a variable-value gamble. ~J |
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Oct 7 2006, 11:02 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
From my viewpoint, it fits with the spirit of the rest of the rules. Or, put another way, I think the SR authors would have ruled it that way. That is, of course, only my opinion. Part of it is also that I feel that the mage's control over the elemental is revealed by the presence of the aura signature on the elemental. I believe that if you call an elemental for a service, and you've changed signatures via initiation, then if your signature doesn't propagate to the elemental (I think I might allow the mage a choice), then the elemental would dissipate and any remaining services would be lost. No signature on the elmental = no control of the elemental. Another part is that I feel this causes fewer problems. I feel going the other way requires a complete chart of answers to what happens to extant signature links when a signature is changed via initiation (to anchoring foci, etc.). My ruling avoids even bringing the question up. |
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Oct 7 2006, 11:46 PM
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#14
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
err... don't have my book in front of me, but isn't there a 'Flexible Signature' metamagic in the core book that makes your aura/signature appear different, as well as making astral signature go away faster?
edit:sorry, SR4 This post has been edited by fistandantilus3.0: Oct 8 2006, 12:09 AM |
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Oct 8 2006, 05:16 AM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 13-July 04 Member No.: 6,476 |
While it's a scary possibility, I don't think its anymore likely or scarier than mundane assassination.
One, mages willing to be assassinate are probably at least as rare as mundane assassins. Two, I don't see why their intelligence is important. IMO, it's not like elementals can or like to problem solve in the mundane plane as they have no familiarity or interest in human affairs. I don't imagine an elemental doing anything with tact, if that's what you mean. Three, as mentioned, there is also the issue that elementals always give away the person who "hired" them. |
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Oct 8 2006, 12:23 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,848 |
could you not order the killing, and then order them to erase the signature and leave?
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Oct 8 2006, 12:42 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 573 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
Only if you can summon Spirits Of The Elements and you have the Invoking metamagic. Spirits summoned by a hermetic mage (ie elementals) cannot do this, however Wuxing allows you to summon Spirits Of The Five Elements (MitS p17) of Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water. And Wind (p106). So, six elements, one of which (metal) doesn't have a spirit type associated with it. So, five. Whatever. If summoned into its Great Form it will have the power of Cleansing (p107) and cleanse the signature it creates... except that Cleansing (p74) says "For cleansing to be effective, the cause of the background count must first be removed." ie the spirit itself. So really the Cleansing provided by a Great Form Spirit of the Elements is only good for cleansing your signature once you flee the crime scene. Its signature will remain; however if it is only low force that signature will dissipate far faster than the high force powerball's signature it was erasing would have.
Though there are no rules to say so, this is what I would go along with if a player kept a spirit around for ages and in the meantime changed his or her signature. Next time he called on the elemental it would reply "who are you?" "the guy who summoned you" "no you're not; I distinctly remember the flavour of his signature... and yours isn't it - stop bothering me". On the other hand, the mage's ally spirit is built around its core Magic point, and that Magic point came from / is part of the essence of the mage, so as soon as his signature changes, the ally's signature would update simultaneously. If the ally were to go free, sever the connection between that Magic point and its donor, then any signature changes made by the mage would not affect the free spirit's signature.
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Oct 8 2006, 03:35 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
To address your points. Mundane assassins are not invisable then bullet proof and do not heal wounds at rate of minutes outside of combat. Niether do they have magic powers. Their intellegence is important because it governs how they interepret their orders with in a situation. "Kill them". For example allows a highly intellegent elemental to use it's powers as it see's fit, whom to attack, how it tracks a target etc Finally if your a mega corp mage that isn't going to leave your extra territorial enclave you don't care if a magician can tell you sent the elemental to kill a mundane, whom by the way couldn't tell. |
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Oct 8 2006, 03:48 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
That's not right. The presence of spirits doesn't cause background, magical/emotional activity does. Killing someone, casting a spell, using a spirit power, torturing someone, prayer/worship, sitting in a cubicle dwelling on the pointlessness of your life and career, etc. Those are the causes that must be "removed," which for temporary background really means "stopped." |
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Oct 8 2006, 08:39 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
A high Intelligence in an elemental assassin isn't neccessarily a good thing.
Remember that spirits aren't the most willing of servants. An elemental with a high Intelligence is likelier to use that high Intelligence to pervert the intentions of its orders, or to cause complications for the summoning mage. A lot of that may depend on how the summoner treats his elementals, of course. |
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Oct 8 2006, 08:51 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It might matter how a summoner treats his spirits or elementals if the spirits or elementals were independent beings, but they are not. They are merely manifestations of the summoner's will, and as such, disobedience from them indicates nothing more than disorder in the summoner's own mind.
Damn "spirit rights" activists. ~J |
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Oct 9 2006, 12:44 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 573 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
So since we are talking about spirit assassins (or assassin's if you prefer) that involves killing someone (usually). And creating the consequential background count of violence. Since child of insanity suggested Cleansing I showed that it's only Great Form Spirits of the Elements who can have Cleansing as a power. You say using a spirit power causes a background count (such as a GFSotE using its own spirit power, Cleansing, as its conjuror instructed it to do) and MitS says Cleansing is ineffective unless the source of the background count (that is, the spirit whose power is being activated in this case, or the spirit who's just killed someone) is removed. Or are you saying that while the spirit is on remote service, background count is generated around the conjuror since he is the one with the malevolent scheme to kill someone, and the elemental is merely his unthinking weapon? The old argument that "guns don't kill people; people kill people"? |
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Oct 9 2006, 04:01 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
It's ongoing death/emotion/magic use that creates background count. (Except for very large does of one of these, which create a permanent background count.)
So all you need to do is stop killing people, stop any bystanders from screaming or carrying on, stop using spirit powers. Summoning a (somewhat powerful) spirit might, if you're a pain in the ass GM, cause a brief background count of 1. A spirit hanging around, or a spell simply being sustained, does not. What can't be Cleansed under SR3 rules is a site with ongoing emotional output - a torture chamber with living victims, a prison with inmates, a hospital with patients, a particularly soulless and grim cubicle farm with wageslaves at work. |
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Oct 9 2006, 04:51 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 13-July 04 Member No.: 6,476 |
I didn't say elementals weren't well-equipped for combat. I still don't think an elemental would do a crafty job killing anyone. Just move in astrally, manifest, do the job and depart ASAP. Elementals are supposed to be very single-minded.
If subtley is an issue, this is also important. A mundane assassin may kill the target discretely in any manner or a mage could cast spells at a distance, but an elemental has no choice but to make an obvious appearance and use violent means. And while a mage could sit back in a corporate enclave while their elemental does the dirty work, if any magician is present at the scene then the summoner's signature at the time is known and they can still be traced back to the enclave. Even if the mage isn't indentified personally, it may be more obvious what group is responsible while a good covert operative may never be identified at all. There's also the issue of astral barriers, which spirits just can't get around without alerting someone (if they jump metaplanes, that's an extra service so they have to attack on a remote service). I'm not saying elementals don't make good assassins. They do seem like they would be rare and lack subtlety. |
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Oct 9 2006, 06:44 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 573 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
If the target is dual natured they don't need to manifest. If the target is exclusively on the physical plane, then manifesting will do nothing except alert the target an elemental is in the room. The spirit would actually need to materialise onto the physical plane to affect a physical being.
Agreed. So if the spirit is using a spirit power (in this case, the power of Cleansing) then the source of the background count is still present. For cleansing to work, the spirit must stop using its spirit powers, ie stop cleansing. Then no background count is being generated or sustained. So then it is free to begin cleansing. Except that as soon as it does, it is using a spirit power and thus cleansing cannot be performed.
This demonstrates my point that a GFSotE can cleanse the signature of one of your spells (eg a powerbolt) because the source has already been removed (you are no longer casting powerbolt). However, the spirit cannot erase the signature it leaves by its presence / activity. Nevertheless if your powerbolt was force 8 that signature would have hung around for 8 hours; if your force 2 GFSotE cleanses it away there will only be a 2 hour period before the much weaker spirit signature dissipates. |
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