 Possible Quality Exploit, Didn't find it when I searched |
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 Oct 13 2006, 12:37 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,113  |
Ok here we go:
Say a human takes Exceptional Attribute (body) Now say he buys 6 in body. Does it cost him 50 (5x10) because he hasn't put in the "last' point yet (As from PG 73) Or does he spend 75 (4x10 + 25) because he's hitting the 'last' point without the quality, and would have to spend 25 for the 7th point? |
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Oct 13 2006, 12:54 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I would say 50 because he didnt max out the attribute, which is 7 after the quality. He pays 20 for the quality anyways, so he isnt really saving anything.
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Oct 13 2006, 12:57 AM
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#3
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It costs 50 BP, as he has not 'maxed out' his Body.
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Oct 13 2006, 01:17 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
Agree, 50 BP because his new max is 7.
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Oct 13 2006, 02:04 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Yup.
But it's not an exploit, unless you consider spending 30 point to get 25 bp worth of attribute an exploit.... ;) |
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Oct 13 2006, 02:52 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
It may not save you points per se, but if you are maxing out your Attributes, it lets you put more points into them. 25 points means you can only spend up to 195 points on your Attributes (since you can't go over 200). So that 25 points is like 30, in that the last point increase costs you the ability to put three points elsewhere. If you have Exceptional Attribute, though, then it only costs 10 points, meaning that you can get two more Attribute points than you would be able to if you hadn't bought that Edge.
So at a net cost of 5 points, you have the ability to put more points into your Attributes (and can eventually increase that one Attribute to a higher maximum, as well). Definitely worth it, in my opinion. |
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Oct 13 2006, 02:58 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
You still have a 200BP max on how much he can spend on attributes, so he will have to drop one or more of his stats below 3 into substandard or retarded levels.
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Oct 13 2006, 04:12 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Yeah, having a high Attribute is always a trade-off, but without the Quality, it's an even worse trade-off, since the last point will cost you the equivalent of three Attribute points that could have been allocated elsewhere.
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Oct 13 2006, 02:59 PM
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#9
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
But is point is, 20 of those 30 points don't come out of the 200BP for attributes. It's a quality, so 20 of those 30 points are coming out of your 400BP limit. Out of your 200BP attribute points, you're only spending 10 instead of 25(which, due to rounding to the nearest 10 is like 30) allows you to buy two more attributes. Yes, it costs more built points, but because of the 200BP restriction on attributes, this lets you spend them froma different place, thus spending more on attributes. It's a good point, IMO.
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Oct 13 2006, 03:17 PM
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#10
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
It's functionally the same as buying a race. The BP for metatype give you attributes that do not count towards the 200 bp limit.
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Oct 13 2006, 03:34 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Which is why elves get the most bang for thier buck. 35BP for +3 in attributes (1 Agi, 2 Cha) and low light vision.
All the other races have a negative somewhere when you buy them. |
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Oct 13 2006, 03:44 PM
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#12
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Except Race doesn't take a big chuck our of your limited allotment of positive Qualities.
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Oct 13 2006, 03:49 PM
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#13
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
So the "exploit" of taking exceptional attribute to exceed the 200 bp on atttributes limit eats into your Positive Quality count as well as the remaining BP. |
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Oct 13 2006, 04:14 PM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yep ... more than half. If you choose to use this 'exploit' and be a Magician, then that is it for your positive Qualites at chargen. |
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Oct 13 2006, 05:27 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
All of which says to me "It's fine."
Anything that generates that much debate about whether it's a good idea or not is de facto balanced to me. ;) |
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Oct 13 2006, 06:43 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Quoted for truth. |
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Oct 15 2006, 01:42 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I'm not really sure how debate there really is to be had.
If a player plans on giving their PC a racially maxed attribute, and doesn't already have their 3 starting positive qualities spoken for, it's an easy decision that equates to more BPs available for attributes, an attribute that can be further raised down the road, and a net cost of 5 BPs over just maxing the attribute to begin with. Seems like a pretty non-disputable point for any PC that falls into that spread. |
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Oct 15 2006, 02:51 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
5 bps to be able to buy one more attr point than you usually would in a certain circumstance is fine by me.
Heck I'd be okay with Talented (5 points): Choose one attribute. You may purchase one additional point in this attribute, subject to the normal costs. This attribute must be less than your racial maximum after purchase. That's the "exploit" made explicit.... |
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Oct 15 2006, 03:31 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Those are two really big ifs, because spending 30 BP on that extra Attribute point tends to weaken the character overall. Because of this I look at it the other way around. Outside of Magic, which doesn't have the equivalent of Exceptional Attribute at character creation, I really can't see ever taking that last point in the normal natural limit unless I happen to be taking Exceptional Attribute anyway. Magic is a bit different because it's not just dice, but also is used for determining maximum Force and a few other lesser applications. Even so I tend to avoid taking the last costly point. BTW just so you know there isn't a limit of the number of Positive Qualities, the limit is on the total BP of the Qualities. |
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Oct 15 2006, 10:48 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The BP limits are separate, though (you can only get up to 35 points of positive qualities, and you can only gain up to 35 points on negative qualities). This is unlike SR3, where the limit was on net points gained or lost.
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