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> Possible Quality Exploit, Didn't find it when I searched
Cognitive Resona...
post Oct 13 2006, 12:37 AM
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Ok here we go:

Say a human takes Exceptional Attribute (body)
Now say he buys 6 in body.

Does it cost him 50 (5x10) because he hasn't put in the "last' point yet
(As from PG 73)
Or does he spend 75 (4x10 + 25) because he's hitting the 'last' point without the quality, and would have to spend 25 for the 7th point?
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Konsaki
post Oct 13 2006, 12:54 AM
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I would say 50 because he didnt max out the attribute, which is 7 after the quality. He pays 20 for the quality anyways, so he isnt really saving anything.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 12:57 AM
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It costs 50 BP, as he has not 'maxed out' his Body.
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Mistwalker
post Oct 13 2006, 01:17 AM
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Agree, 50 BP because his new max is 7.
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lorechaser
post Oct 13 2006, 02:04 AM
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Yup.

But it's not an exploit, unless you consider spending 30 point to get 25 bp worth of attribute an exploit.... ;)
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Glyph
post Oct 13 2006, 02:52 AM
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It may not save you points per se, but if you are maxing out your Attributes, it lets you put more points into them. 25 points means you can only spend up to 195 points on your Attributes (since you can't go over 200). So that 25 points is like 30, in that the last point increase costs you the ability to put three points elsewhere. If you have Exceptional Attribute, though, then it only costs 10 points, meaning that you can get two more Attribute points than you would be able to if you hadn't bought that Edge.

So at a net cost of 5 points, you have the ability to put more points into your Attributes (and can eventually increase that one Attribute to a higher maximum, as well). Definitely worth it, in my opinion.
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Konsaki
post Oct 13 2006, 02:58 AM
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You still have a 200BP max on how much he can spend on attributes, so he will have to drop one or more of his stats below 3 into substandard or retarded levels.
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Glyph
post Oct 13 2006, 04:12 AM
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Yeah, having a high Attribute is always a trade-off, but without the Quality, it's an even worse trade-off, since the last point will cost you the equivalent of three Attribute points that could have been allocated elsewhere.
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Moon-Hawk
post Oct 13 2006, 02:59 PM
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But is point is, 20 of those 30 points don't come out of the 200BP for attributes. It's a quality, so 20 of those 30 points are coming out of your 400BP limit. Out of your 200BP attribute points, you're only spending 10 instead of 25(which, due to rounding to the nearest 10 is like 30) allows you to buy two more attributes. Yes, it costs more built points, but because of the 200BP restriction on attributes, this lets you spend them froma different place, thus spending more on attributes. It's a good point, IMO.
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DireRadiant
post Oct 13 2006, 03:17 PM
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It's functionally the same as buying a race. The BP for metatype give you attributes that do not count towards the 200 bp limit.
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Konsaki
post Oct 13 2006, 03:34 PM
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Which is why elves get the most bang for thier buck. 35BP for +3 in attributes (1 Agi, 2 Cha) and low light vision.
All the other races have a negative somewhere when you buy them.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 03:44 PM
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Except Race doesn't take a big chuck our of your limited allotment of positive Qualities.
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DireRadiant
post Oct 13 2006, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
Except Race doesn't take a big chuck our of your limited allotment of positive Qualities.

So the "exploit" of taking exceptional attribute to exceed the 200 bp on atttributes limit eats into your Positive Quality count as well as the remaining BP.
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Fortune
post Oct 13 2006, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant)
So the "exploit" of taking exceptional attribute to exceed the 200 bp on atttributes limit eats into your Positive Quality count as well as the remaining BP.

Yep ... more than half. If you choose to use this 'exploit' and be a Magician, then that is it for your positive Qualites at chargen.
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lorechaser
post Oct 13 2006, 05:27 PM
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All of which says to me "It's fine."

Anything that generates that much debate about whether it's a good idea or not is de facto balanced to me. ;)
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Moon-Hawk
post Oct 13 2006, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
Anything that generates that much debate about whether it's a good idea or not is de facto balanced to me. ;)

Quoted for truth.
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Steak and Spirit...
post Oct 15 2006, 01:42 PM
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I'm not really sure how debate there really is to be had.

If a player plans on giving their PC a racially maxed attribute, and doesn't already have their 3 starting positive qualities spoken for, it's an easy decision that equates to more BPs available for attributes, an attribute that can be further raised down the road, and a net cost of 5 BPs over just maxing the attribute to begin with.

Seems like a pretty non-disputable point for any PC that falls into that spread.
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lorechaser
post Oct 15 2006, 02:51 PM
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5 bps to be able to buy one more attr point than you usually would in a certain circumstance is fine by me.

Heck I'd be okay with Talented (5 points): Choose one attribute. You may purchase one additional point in this attribute, subject to the normal costs. This attribute must be less than your racial maximum after purchase.

That's the "exploit" made explicit....
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blakkie
post Oct 15 2006, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (Steak and Spirits @ Oct 15 2006, 07:42 AM)
...If a player plans on giving their PC a racially maxed attribute, and doesn't already have their 3 starting positive qualities spoken for...

Those are two really big ifs, because spending 30 BP on that extra Attribute point tends to weaken the character overall. Because of this I look at it the other way around. Outside of Magic, which doesn't have the equivalent of Exceptional Attribute at character creation, I really can't see ever taking that last point in the normal natural limit unless I happen to be taking Exceptional Attribute anyway.

Magic is a bit different because it's not just dice, but also is used for determining maximum Force and a few other lesser applications. Even so I tend to avoid taking the last costly point.

BTW just so you know there isn't a limit of the number of Positive Qualities, the limit is on the total BP of the Qualities.
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Glyph
post Oct 15 2006, 10:48 PM
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The BP limits are separate, though (you can only get up to 35 points of positive qualities, and you can only gain up to 35 points on negative qualities). This is unlike SR3, where the limit was on net points gained or lost.
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