Counterspelling..., ...and Astral Projection Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Leaf]

Now pardon my lack of search-fu, but I haven't found anything reguarding this specific point.

The question arose when I had thought about counterspelling and the way LOS is needed for it's use on others. If a mage is Astrally projecting and can 'see' the aura's of his comrades, shouldn't he be able to use counterspelling on them? After all, if a mage uses perception it isn't like his buddies lose Counterspelling for that little amount of time...

Just wondering what everyone else thinks, and if anyone finds something concrete please post.

[Fortune]

Astral Projection or Perception counts as valid LOS, and in some cases that LOS is even better than it is in the meat world.

[Slithery D]

You need to be on the same plane to effect someone with magic. You can provide counterspelling against spells cast at them on the astral plane by other astrally projecting mages...which can't effect them anyway unless the targets are themselves astrally active.

This may not actually be spelled out anywhere in the BBB, but it's how it worked in all previous editions and its consistent with the way astral space still works in SR4.

[Fortune]

I wasn't quite sure about that, which is why I only posted exactly what I was sure about.

[Slithery D]

The issue isn't LOS, it's which plane you're on. Especially given SM's change that mana actually exists in the physical world now, rather than previous edition's "you channel magic that zips across the astral and then grounds into their physical form which you can do because you're on the same plane with them" overly complex fluff, I think my interpretation is right.

[Fortune]

I think it is right as well. I just think that you should be able to run Astral Overwatch for your team and still provide Counterspelling dice.

[Demerzel]

Sure, no prob as long as your whole team is Dual Natured.

[Fortune]

That's right. At a critical juncture, I'll just get them to pop some Deepweed.

[RunnerPaul]

[emo samurai]

I'd allow it.

[RunnerPaul]

Let me throw a wrinkle into this: when an astral form (such as an astrally projecting character) uses manifestation to project a portion of their being onto the physical plane, they become vulnerable to mana-based effects cast from the physical plane.

Should a manifested astral form be able to use counterspelling to protect itself from mana spells cast at it from the physical plane? I'd venture to say this one is a no-brainer: A being is always on the same plane as itself, even if it's on multiple planes at the same time, or on the same plane multiple times, therefore it should always be able to use counterspelling to protect itself.

So once you establish that a manifesting astral form can use counterspelling against physical plane spells when protecting itself, then you just have to ask yourself should a manifested astral form be able to apply counterspelling to protect other things on the physical plane.

[Mistwalker]

I would allow it.

But then again, the astral overwatch char would be vulnerable to any kind of astral creature, and most likely alone in facing them, with the rest of the team unaware that their astral overwatch was no longer providing them cover due to a nasty fight with x number of astral denizens.

[Slithery D]

[RunnerPaul]

Saying it's "just a psychic shell" and not really there may have worked for previous editions, but when 4th edition allowed manifested beings to be targeted with mana spells from the physical plane, it complicated things, especially with how spellcasting has worked the past two editions.

Spellcasting in 3rd/4th editions involves the spellcaster using the mana native to their plane as a transmission medium to broadcast a spell effect into the target; counterspelling works by jamming that transmission.

If you say that a manifested astral form isn't really present at all on the physical plane save for a psychic shell, then that psychic shell must somehow provide a contiguous path of mana that leads back to the actual target on the astral. Basically, under that description, manifesting becomes a very limited form of astral rift. Unlike normal astral rifts however, this one doesn't open up to an area, just to the manifested being itself, and while it provides the continuity of mana field to allow you to cast that mana spell at the manifester, it only allows that spellcasting in one direction.

Then we get to counterspelling. If the astral form is only on the astral, and merely projecting a psychic shell that connects back to them via one of these limited astral rifts, then where exactly would the "mana jamming" that makes up counterspelling actually occur if we allow the manifester to perform counterspelling to protect themself? The jamming can't occur on the physical plane, since a being on the astral wouldn't be able to jam mana on the phyical plane. It can't occur on the astral, because the only place on the astral that this special manifestation astral rift connects to is the manifester themself.

So, under the "not there except for a psychic shell" model of manifesting, if we want the manifester to be able to use counterspelling for self protection, this unusual astral rift gains yet another unusual property: unlike standard astral rifts which allow for direct spatial overlay between the two planes, this rift is more tunnel-like, giving some sort of non-space that the continuous mana field must travel through before it reaches the manifester's astral form.

It's a lot of trouble to go to just to be able to say that the Manifester isn't really there, they're just projecting a psychic shell. Seems simpler to say that since there's already a precident for awakened beings to exist on multiple planes (Astral Perception/Astral Projection), then manifesting is just another example of the same kind of trick.

That way, you don't need any convoluted non-standard astral rifts. The manifester can be targeted from the physical because they are present on the physical, however, because their manifestation is only a mana-based form with no actual phsycial substance, they can only be affected by mana-based effects.

However with an "Actually there" theory of manifesting, you run into some thorny issues. Manifested beings can not physically interact with anything on the physical plane but things like counterspelling, or for that matter spellcasting, or the use of certain spirit powers aren't physical interactions, they're purely mana based. Do we allow these? If we do, we run the risk of overpowering the use of spirits and the use of astral projection.

I'm inclined to allow the use of some of these, such as counterspelling (for the manifester and for others), while denying the use of others, such as spellcasting/spirit powers. In the end, whether you allow are disallow any or all of these it will take some handwaving for justification, but handwaving to justify game balance and setting integrity is a tradition in SR.