How would a Catholic Magician Work? Options

[Eryk the Red]

The more common names used for the Christian angelic choirs, in order of greatest to least powerful, are: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones (Ofanim), Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, Angels.

[eidolon]

Anyone interested in using the whole choirs thing might want to check out In Nomine (SJG).

Also, there's a free RPG called "Children of Fire" kicking around the net that's similar.

[lorechaser]

In Nomine is by far the best game out there that's hell to run.

It is about the only thing that really surpasses my love of Shadowrun.

And yet, I can never enjoy playing it.

Eryk did indeed provide a more traditional naming.

Seraphim: The Most Holy
Cherubim: The Guardians
Ofanim: The Wheels
Elohim: The Powers
Malakim: The Virtues
Kyriotates: The Dominions

Angelic choirs are just full on badass.

Flaming wheels and multi-eyed snakes. Aww yeah.

[eidolon]

I like the idea of playing In Nomine, but I refuse to play it on the grounds that I've never trusted enough players at a time to make up a full group of people that could do it without it becoming some pissing contest over who finds what offensive.

[ShadowDragon]

[Eryk the Red]

Though I'm always as suspicious as the next guy of criminals claiming to be committed to their faith, I think it's always important to remember that having faith is not the same as being a saint. You ever heard someone say "We're all failed Christians"? Well, some people are more failed than others. (I've completely failed. I'm a Jew.)

Some people are capable of believing completely in a faith, while still doing very bad things on a regular basis. (I am good friends with a Mormon who is a regular enough customer at the bar we like to usually drink free.) They might believe that what they do is somehow justified, or even a moral imperative. They also might feel a lot of shame and self-loathing, knowing how badly they've failed.

As you can tell, religion fascinates me, and I like to make good use of it in RPGs, without going the World of Darkness "religion-is-bad-unless-it-is-pagan-and-then-it-might-be-bad-anyway-and-they-just-want-to-control-you-and-suppress-the-truth" route.

[lorechaser]

[Fortune]

[WhiskeyMac]

Just cause you follow a religion doesn't mean you don't act like a normal person. You are still human and still have human impulses and tendencies. Religious people are just suppose to be able to suppress those tendencies better than the heathens though :D. A "Jesus is my Co-Pilot" bumper sticker doesn't mean that person won't run you off the road if you're in their way, they're having a horrible day and they're going to be late for an AA meeting. I see a religious runner as a very good possibility. He doesn't have to kill and feels great remorse for his actions but it is necessary for his survival and it's not like the mega-corporations are shining examples of purity. I can see him not wanting to do wetwork (unless the person doesn't deserve to live) but he probably would be a very good hacker or thief. Maybe even leaving them a note letting them know that they should probably upgrade their security or get some guards that don't sleep on the job.

[FrankTrollman]

Not being a member of one, I'm unable to see any problems with being a mass murderer and poison seller while being a devout member of a salvationist religion.

Al Capone distilled alcohol from the municipal garbage of Cook County and had people shot in order to protect his financial empire based on the selling of illegal, contaminated, and dangerous goods. But honestly, so what?

Under the schema of any salvationist religion, sinning of any type dooms you. And sinning includes being born in most of them. On the other hand, embracing a salvationist religion makes you saved. You don't get doomed, because you perform the rights of contrition correctly and you aren't doomed.

I don't see the disconnect. Al Capone was born into sin, and then he accepted Jesus through Catholicism and was saved so he could go to heaven. The fact that he sinned a lot and killed a bunch of people in between those two events doesn't seem to even matter in the face of Original Sin and an All Forgiving God.

Really, it seems a perfect fit. If you're someone like Al Capone you'd better follow a salvationist religion, otherwise you'd have nothing good to look forward to after you're dead.

-Frank

[Jaid]

is the belief in original sin really that widespread? i mean, i know it's Catholic doctrine (and certainly there are lots of Catholics in the world), but i didn't think the protestant religions really followed that, i've never heard of any such thing in Islam or Judaism (though i am hardly a scholar in either of those religions), and i know the LDS faith doesn't believe in it.

now, i don't know how you're defining salvationist religion, but perhaps there is some eastern/oriental religion that believes in original sin or something?

and at least in the LDS faith (and i suspect in protestant faiths as well) it isn't so much a question of rites performed, it's a question of whether or not you have truly accepted salvation. in the LDS faith, such acceptance is evident in the choices you make; if you truly believe that Jesus Christ is the savior, and that he wants what is best for you, then you will generally follow his teachings as best you can, because you have faith that it will lead you to happiness.

that being said, i could certainly see someone who considers themselves a mormon, but who doesn't really practise the religion; it's something i noticed when i was a missionary is that many of those who don't actively participate in the religion and who make little to no effort to follow the teachings still consider themselves Mormons. not knowing offhand whether those who professed to be of other faiths were particularly devout members who attended services regularly and did their best to live the teachings or not, i would imagine it is possible to see that kind of situation elsewhere (and especially with Catholicism, incidentally... it seemed to me that there were quite a few people who attended church twice a year and otherwise didn't really pay any attention to their religion still considered themselves to be catholic, notwithstanding they often didn't seem to know much about the teachings, or make any effort to follow them).

in any event, as a particular example of a runner who was religious, we have Twist. while i hesitate to use him as an example for anything, he is definitely christian, definitely believes it is important to do what is right, to the point that he actually won't use lethal force if he can avoid it, and yet he is still a shadowrunner. in the event that someone was basically forced into the shadows (and for most shadowrunners, this should be the case... if you've got a quarter million :nuyen: worth of 'ware and exceptional skills, or powerful magic abilities, or similar things, there should be a dang good reason you are in the shadows risking your life regularly when you could instead be making a lot of money legitimately... ) i could see them justifying some runs (i mean, obviously they aren't gonna agree to rob an orphanage or something, if those even still exist, but steal from a corp? heck, chances are there's people today who steal from businesses in some way or another and still consider themselves to be honest, upright citizens. for example, how many people do you think spend time at work on the internet, playing around? they are essentially stealing from their employers, if you consider it. as another example, pirating software and such is all over the place, and people don't even think about it. in the rather morally ambiguous sixth world of shadowrun, i could certainly see people taking that to greater extremes).

[Fortune]

The Mormons are a great example. Look at the sect of what basically amounted to gunfighters within the Church hierarchy (I can't remember their name) that was sanctioned to tend to the protection of the flock (Protection being very loosly defined). This group was not above doing what was necessary, including pre-emptive strikes and, if one believe even half of what one reads, various and sundry unsavory acts, all with the church's blessing, and safe in the knowledge that they were doing Right.

Of course, this was back in the early days of SLC. I'm not trying to imply that such an organization exists nowadays ... but I'm not saying they don't either. ;)

[kzt]

[Glyph]

[Garrowolf]

[Neonsamurai]

In our running campaign I play a "christian" Mage from scotland - streetname Nathan ( from Nathanael, one of the archangels ), who always has the right quote from the bible for the bad boys :grinbig:

[Eryk the Red]

My campaign hasn't seen much religion yet, because I don't want to beat the players over the head with it. They have faced off with an ironically humorless trio made up of a priest, a rabbi and a minister. (The priest is a mage, the rabbi is the strongman and the minister is a cold, frighteningly accurate marksman.) They will, however, come face to face with another character's faith that they were unaware of, and specifically they'll discover his self-loathing because the life he leads is without a doubt an evil one.

Hopefully, they'll see themselves in him, at least for a moment.

Then they'll get hired to kidnap someone, and they'll likely destroy a city block in the process. Because that's how these guys do things. ;)

[lorechaser]

One key point here is that a Catholic magician is not a divine spellcaster, per DnD.

If you sin, you don't lose your powers. You might geas yourself unconciously, or the like, but there is no in game effect.

So whether the Catholic magician is truly a good christian is truly irrelevant. What is relevant is how the magician frames their worldview, and how they behave. If a priest comes along and declares the mage a heretic, the mage can either accept that, and possibly change traditions, or work out a way to get over it.

But it's not like someone is doling out the powers, and you have to justify your actions to them....

[De Badd Ass]

I think most Shadowrunners would follow the philosphy of the Reverend Ike.

[Eryk the Red]

Well, lorechaser, that's what those UMT guys keep saying, but I think they're full of it.

[fistandantilus4....]

I think although the SR Theurgy don't see magic as divine in the sense of God granted ability (like D&D), it's more like any other part of life. it is a great gift, in the same sense that an artist has a gift, but it is also a test. That's another part of the mormon doctrine as well, that we are here to make our selves something better (more or less, don't want to get into too deep of a theology discussion here).

That's the OPV we;ve been using in our game. That its part of life's tests, liek anything else, and can be used for good or evil, or not even used at all. If you all from your faith, you don't lose your magic (possible geasa not withstanding). You may have some other serious issues, but it's still there. And there's always that good ol' redemption thing. Playing a religious runner with magic doesn't have to be any different than a religious runner without it.

The main thing to decide I think is what kind of game you're going to be playing. Is it like a standard SR, and all the possible moral issues with it? Is it more of a church special forces, invloving the Templars, New Jesuits, and enemies of the church? Which denomination of Christianity, or part of the Catholic church does the character connect to? Are they somethign altogether different, like a member of the Knights of the Red Cross, fighting the Seelie Court for control of ireland, and going to mass every Sunday? Are we takling Boondock Saints Gunslinger adepts here? These are importnat questions to work out along sode working out the rules for it.

[Jaid]

[Fortune]

The group of Mormon enforcers were called the Danites, and by all accounts that I have read (even by people in the know), they were most definitely endorsed by Young, and the other Church elders of the time.

[Jaid]

well, here's what i found looking it up in literature published by the Church:
just to allow those who aren't interested to skim over...

[ Spoiler ]

(this is a quote, but i think it was arguing with the spoiler):
Rumors now circulated on both sides, and false reports of a Mormon uprising reached Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs. He ordered the state militia to organize for action. The Latter-day Saints enlisted in the Caldwell County militia for self-defense. When mobs in Carroll County harassed the Saints at DeWitt, Joseph Smith advised members to leave the county. This decision encouraged mob action elsewhere. Night-riding mobs burned homes and haystacks near Adam-Ondi-Ahman, and state militia officers instructed Lyman Wight to organize a Mormon militia for protection.
On October 24 a company of Caldwell County militia under Captain Samuel Bogart took three Mormons prisoner and warned others to leave the state. Captain David W. Patten, a member of the Twelve, took a small detachment of the Mormon militia and marched on Bogart’s camp at Crooked River to rescue the prisoners. These two companies of militia fought a hand-to-hand battle in which Patten and three other men were killed.
Exaggerated reports of this confrontation reached Governor Boggs. He was told that the Saints were burning towns, driving established settlers from their homes and undermining civil authority through the activities of a group known as the “Danites”—a band of avengers. Joseph Smith was charged with being the prime instigator but had nothing to do with it and exposed the participants when he became aware of it. Ignoring the Latter-day Saint viewpoint of matters, Boggs issued an order on October 27 instructing General John B. Clark of the state militia, “The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary for the public good. Their outrages are beyond all description.”

(this was also a quote... spoiler fight!)Of course, no catalogue of Mormon villains would be complete without the fictional Danites—that band of enforcers who see that the wishes of the “holy four,” or the bishop, or Brother Brigham (depending on which piece you are reading) are carried out. Hundreds and hundreds of literary corpses are strewn through the pages of fiction, wayward members who tried to escape from Salt Lake Valley, or antagonistic nonmembers who refused to give their dollars or daughters to the Church.[/QUOTE](the second quote comes from an article that deals with the matter more extensively... but essentially, the point it makes is that the danites were common in fictional stories around the turn of the century, when people didn't know much about Mormons but it made good fiction to invent stuff). if you want, the rest of the article can be found here

long story short, there never were any danites.

though, as is noted above, they made good fictional stories, and as such could probably be added into SR just fine (honestly, having an uncorrupt organisation just doesn't seem to fit in SR), as well as other similar groups (heck, the vatican has like 5 different secret organisations from what i can recall :P us Mormons better catch up quick lol... )

[edited to dequote the quotes to allow them to be spoilered]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Oct 20 2006, 12:44 AM

[Fortune]

Not to call you a liar, and no offense intended, but I tend to look a little deeper when an organization (or even an individual member of one) claims to be totally uncorrupt throughout its history. Especially with plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Be that as it may though, this is not the forum for actual religious debates and/or incriminations. As you have pointed out, in the Sixth World, there is no reason that such a group (historically fictional or not) could, or even would not exist, and is a good example of a runner-style religious character concept. :)