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> What kind of runner are you?, Professional or "Ametuer" (sic)
If Lonestar raided my safehouse, I would
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De Badd Ass
post Oct 16 2006, 09:05 AM
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In every shadowrun game that I have ever played, someone would shoot at Lone Star without remorse. They shoot security guards, night watchmen, and rent-a-cops - people just doing their jobs.

Abbandon calls these runners "ametuers". What do you think? Are runners the good guys or the bad guys in Shadowrun?
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Konsaki
post Oct 16 2006, 09:22 AM
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I'd run for my life. Lonestar, when they raid, aint no joke. Their beatcops might be doughnut dunkers, but the SWAT is a different story.
Runners are the grey portion of the story that can be on both sides of the fence at once.
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Ophis
post Oct 16 2006, 09:30 AM
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Killing cops gets them far to interested in you. Run and live to fight another day, though I mostly support the zero hostile contact with the enemy type planning.
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Mistwalker
post Oct 16 2006, 10:11 AM
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Run.

Like Konsaki said, if the Star raids you, they have made sure that they brought more than enough people and gear to do the job.

When I was a player, and now my players, try to limit the dead. This for several reasons: The more you kill, the higher the resources spent to find and neutralize you; The less you kill, the greater the chance that the sec forces will try to capture you; The longer it can take to get a High Threat Response team to be called in (one mission, they splashed rot gut on a couple of guards, left the empty bottle there, so the alarm didn't go off when other guards found them).

Often, my players will "heal" up a NPC they just shot, to make sure that they live. Mostly using Force 1 Heal spell, but the NPC lives.
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BlueRondo
post Oct 16 2006, 11:25 AM
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I'd run just because the types of characters I play wouldn't stand a chance.
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Eben McKay
post Oct 16 2006, 12:04 PM
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I'd surrender. Honestly, if Lone Star was raiding my safehouse, that means they know where I am and who I am. That also means they have the place surrounded and under surveillance. Shooting it out is a death sentence, and running never seems to really work against cops, at least judging by the daily news.

Surrender, but not before calling every contact and ally I can think of to arrange a daring extraction from the paddywagon that's taking me away.
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Schaeffer
post Oct 16 2006, 12:12 PM
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We once shot a few on the way to an escape tunnel, blew up the safehouse... and then left town for a few years.
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Ryu
post Oct 16 2006, 01:07 PM
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I will flee if my safehouse is raided. The only exception would be obviously unable attackers.

The basic assumption is that any attacker will come prepared for the task at hand, and I won´t bet my life that they are incompetent.
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adamu
post Oct 16 2006, 01:12 PM
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Killing cops - man, moral issues depend on the character, but just in terms of survival - even shoot at a cop, private or public, much less kill one, and the entire department and every other department in the region and the feds all make catching you their number one priority. For real. That's how they stay alive - it's like a nuclear deterrent - every mug on the streets knows that's what'll happen, and they also know what'll happen once they get caught.
Depending on the neighborhood, the day, the jurisdiction, whatever, they may or may not outgun you or be outgunned, but they will always have better discipline and better organization than any criminal element you would care to name, and they can operate in the open with the approval of society. The deterrent factor is how they make sure this advantage is in effect every second of every day every officer is on the street.
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nezumi
post Oct 16 2006, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE (Eben McKay)
running never seems to really work against cops, at least judging by the daily news.

You believe the news? Bah, you've already lost.

I'd run. At worst, I'm caught and it's resisting arrest tagged onto what's certainly already a considerable sentence. If I'm caught, I disappear into the system and I'm basically dead. If I shoot it out, at least I have some fun before I'm dead.
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toturi
post Oct 16 2006, 02:37 PM
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I vote for shoot it out. Why? If LS or KE or any cop corp raided your safe house, they would have had enough people to kill you and make sure you did not run away. Surrender might be a good option, but unless you like playing as a company man(enforced with cranial bombs) or prisoners(with mage masks for those Awakened). Roleplaying a meat puppet isn't my idea of fun. Shoot it out and go out with a bang, YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD.
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The Jopp
post Oct 16 2006, 02:48 PM
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If the STAR raids your safehouse and there was NO warning at all then they are good enough to take you down or your security SUCK.

Remember, you can seed your entire neighbourhood with sensor tags with tiny little cameras or motion sensors and police radio scanners and tiny drones.

And - always have a way out and a backup plan if the STAR show up.

Run or surrender is my choice - dying is the last resort and a way to give up.

Besides, surrendering to the star has its own roleplaying opportunities to be forced to run for the star.
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lorechaser
post Oct 16 2006, 03:47 PM
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I think far too many people play their runners as sociopathic.

While a level of disregard for society is implied, the guys that kill everyone in the building because they can and blow up a 48 story structure to take out one target just aren't that interesting to me.

Our first session of SR4, we had a nice 10 minute argument about this exact topic (in character). It was pretty entertaining.

Luckily, our sociopaths aren't that good at being sociopaths, so we left a few alive.

The true sociopaths make sure that the targets are already dead when the "bleeding hearts" arrive, or simply listen to the discussion for a couple minutes, then nod, and execute the prisoner.

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Jack Kain
post Oct 16 2006, 04:06 PM
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I'd only shoot it out if I had a healthy supply of gel rounds or stick and shock,
Non leathal but still effective.
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blakkie
post Oct 16 2006, 04:20 PM
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It really depends on what I'm estimating my legal options to be. I might surrender if I think I've got the case or the contacts to beat whatever rap. I'm only going to get into a shootout if it'll buy time I need to run.

If you are between me and the exit you're going to get hit till you are nolonger a threat or an impedment. Hopefully you'll only be incapacitated and pull through.
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Zeitgeist
post Oct 16 2006, 05:27 PM
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Running would be the best option. Shooting it out would go very poorly, as the Star's got more toys, more resources, and more people than you. Surendering would also be a bad idea, as a fair amount of the characters out there are SINless, and civil rights tend to get a bit fuzzy without that ID code. Besides, if they friggin' raid your house, then I'm fairly sure they've got something that you can't wriggle out of.

I honestly don't think it comes down to sociopathic behavior, and rather what's inteligent. When has a shootout with the Man ever ended up with the criminal sitting on a white-sanded beach in Mexico sipping a real margarita (none of that mixed stuff with the crushed ice!) getting massaged by a group of beautiful women?

Granted, running rarely turns out that way either, but you get my point. 8)
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Steak and Spirit...
post Oct 16 2006, 05:43 PM
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Heh.

Depends on the character type. Generally, if my safe house is getting raided, Knight Errant must be packing some serious heat, because they're rolling through the bad part of town of -the bad part of town-.

Which is fine. Usually gives me an opportunity to put this homemade napalm to use.
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Dale
post Oct 16 2006, 05:47 PM
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Run!
While leaving a surprise for the corporate piggies on a 5 minute timer.
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Cheops
post Oct 16 2006, 05:48 PM
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I voted to Run but that was just a catch-all vote. Depending on the type of character I'm playing and what my character thinks they have on him I might just surrender. In SR4 I'm finding that I play a lot of characters that only have restricted items if that. Makes it a lot less nasty if I get picked up--forces them to have something concrete on me. Even if I am SINless, you just hire the right type of lawyer (hello Wolfram and Hart) and he'll be able to get you out of the really high profile stuff. Otherwise just go and spend a couple of years in the pokey.

Unless I'm playing a mage. Mages get it really rough in jail.
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Mistwalker
post Oct 16 2006, 06:10 PM
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Mages, if they are smart, take masking as their first metamagic power.
Makes it harder for the quick astral perception to make you as a mage.
Well, as long as they don't have you on camera flinging about spells....
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kzt
post Oct 16 2006, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
The true sociopaths make sure that the targets are already dead when the "bleeding hearts" arrive, or simply listen to the discussion for a couple minutes, then nod, and execute the prisoner.

True sociopaths don't really care. They have poor impulse control. And target surival is really unimportant to them other then how it impacts them. Then again, YOUR survival is unimportant to them other then how it impacts them. Everyone is just an actor in their personal drama, not actually someone who is signficant other then that.


"A psychopath is defined as having no concern for the feelings of others and a complete disregard for any sense of social obligation. They seem egocentric and lack insight and any sense of responsibility or consequence. Their emotions are thought to be superficial and shallow, if they exist at all. They are considered callous, manipulative, and incapable of forming lasting relationships, let alone of any kind of love. It is thought that any emotions which the true psychopath exhibits are the fruits of watching and mimicking other people's emotions. They show poor impulse control and a low tolerance for frustration and aggression. They have no empathy, remorse, anxiety or guilt in relation to their behavior. In short, they truly are devoid of conscience."
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 16 2006, 06:26 PM
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Ran my group through Bottled Demon recently, so we saw this in action. The people that stood their ground and tried to keep shooting it out with the Star, jsut a couple of patrol cars mind you, died . The people that beat feet, they lived. They had to relocate to somewhere out of the Star's juristiction, but they lived.

Another character, a night one gunslinger adept had been leaving a lto of bodies on the floor for a while, and had a run in with the cops, and downed a bunch of them as well. He got smart and moved to Europe, when he found out that they had been tailing him and were about to raid his doss. It is call shadowrun after all. If you find yourself out of the shadows, with a spotlight on you, run.
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eidolon
post Oct 16 2006, 07:36 PM
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Hmm. I think it would depend heavily on a combination of what character I was playing, and what the situation that led to the Star showing up in the first place.
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Gargs454
post Oct 16 2006, 08:04 PM
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I've generally found that shooting it out with cops/military/etc. is a bad idea. As others have said, these groups can operate in the open and have the resources to throw a lot of heat at you. Add in the fact that unlike games like D&D, in Shadowrun you are always fairly vulnerable to even the most basic attacks, and it becomes a no brainer.

As such, my first option would be to try to run. I always try to make sure I have multiple exit strategies from my safehouse, as well as a few surprises that might slow down any unwelcome guests. If escape doesn't appear to be an option then I'll try surrender. There's always the chance that I might be able to bust loose later after all. The only time I'll consider fighting it out with the cops is if they leave me no choice, i.e. they clearly offer no quarter and I have no avenues for escape. In that case, then I really have no options, and I would likely have a few harsh words for my GM afterwards (assuming that I or my group had not created the situation in the first place).
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fool
post Oct 16 2006, 08:16 PM
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my safe houses are usually in the barrens or the orc underground; places lonestar generally doesn't go.
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