 Is Magic overpowered or am I imagining things? |
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 Oct 16 2006, 01:58 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 13-October 06 Member No.: 9,610  |
I don't seem to see any posts complaining about magic so I though I would test the waters?
Me and my friends are very new to the system. We've played a TON of (the old) White-wolf world of darkness. We've played billions of years worth of d20. We've somehow been smitten by the shadowrun world (zomg so cool) Anyways - we've not had very much magic vs magic interaction (read: zero). We've only really had 2 combative confrontations so far. 1) We've had magic used against us with no mage on our side. 2) We've had magic with our group, with no mage on the other side. Both situations have raised some questions against a very particular type of spell: Direct Damage. Manabolt (I guess powerbolt too..) I said I would poll the audience. So lets look at the starting character potential. 6 magic + 5 sorcery + 2 specialty combat magic + 3 combat spellcasting focus +2 mentor spirit. 18 dice = 6 hits on average. Average Defence = Willpower 3 = 1 hit on resist. Total Damage Value: Force 6 = 11 Boxes of Physical (Straight to the damage track). 3 stun drain - should be all resist by 10 dice of Willpower + logic lets say. Force 12 (overcasting) = 17 Boxes of Physical (Straight to the damage track). 6 physical drain - half resisted. ----------- So ... on over-cast - you've just one shot the local troll-phatty-muscle-superman. What are people's opinions on the whole direct-damage all or nothing resist spells? Are our experiences skewed? Are we missing something? Is this just normal/acceptable? |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:05 PM
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#2
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
No posts complaining about magic? Wow....
Overcast drain is physical damage that cannot be healed by magic. Obscure, not explicit, yet true. Guns have no drain. 400 BP <> 400 BP != 400 BP or Starting Character A > Character B > Character C > Character A It is not inherent in the system mechanics and creation that all characters are equal and effective. It is not built into the mechanics of the system to make characters equally effective. It is the play of the system and mechanics that can make characters equal and effective, should you choose to do so. It's not requires that all characters are equal. It is required that all players have fun. |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:15 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 13-October 06 Member No.: 9,610 |
I know it states stun damage (any source) can NOT be healed by magic. Where does it state that physical damage from drain can NOT be healed by magic?
Sam W. |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
A street samurai can do the same thing with a single weapon. I have seen some people get 20+ dicepools with a single weapon. Take your pick, a heavy pistol, assault rifle, or even a sniper rifle. That is going to be some sick damage. Though, mages of course can do a lot more than just damage. They have a lot of other spells that nearly make them capable of tackling any situation. Not only that, but with Street Magic you can now create your own spells.
Oh, and by the way, use Stunbolt and Stunball instead. It is resisted with willpower just like manaball, but has less drain. It is also more effective because everyone has less stun boxes than physical boxes. Also, you incapacitate them, instead of killing them. If you end up needing to kill them, just walk right up to the incapacitated victim and give him a lead injection to the head. Remember, an incapacitated victim can be interrogated later using mind probe, then told to do something by using influence, and then told to forget all of it with alter memory. You can also do sick things with the dream spell. |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:22 PM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
One should also rememeber that just because you ALWAYS started with magic rating 6 and could cheaply buy spells at rating 6 SR4 is a lot more down to earth. Having a magic rating of 6 is not just unusual, it's even rare. Rating 4 magic is the old "6" but it doesn't really matter.
Any number cruncher can come up with extremes in shadowrun and it is up to the GM to get a GOOD explanation for such characters to exist depending on their gaming style. |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:28 PM
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#6
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Street Magic has in one of it's optional rules section the option to allow healing of phsyical overcast damage via magical healing. This implies the not optional rule. |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:40 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 13-October 06 Member No.: 9,610 |
Wow. Nice catch man. Thanks for sharing. |
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Oct 16 2006, 02:59 PM
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#8
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...yes, but you still get armour against he Street Sam's shot, & as I've seen many a time, a fist full of dice doesn't always guarantee massive successes |
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Oct 16 2006, 03:13 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 13-October 06 Member No.: 9,610 |
It doesn't guarantee, but it sure helps. By the same principle, a fist full "spellcasting" dice doesn't guarantee success either. If it's one thing that differentiates SR4 from the whitewolf we used to play it is how much more random it seems. With successes being only 33% of the available range on each die - you tend to want to stay away from combat a lot more - even more than in white wolf - where on average, you were looking at a 50% success range on each die. Sam W. |
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Oct 16 2006, 03:18 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I definitely agree with you, Nerhesi. Great genre. Great game.
Well, yes. You are missing a few things. Let me see if I can shed some light on the subject for you. First of all, Magic can duplicate anything that technology can, and access to Magic can be purchased as a quality for 15 BPs. Essentially, that is the single most valuable/bang-for-your-buck 15 BPs that anyone can ever spend. Ever. It has unlimited potential, and downsides that don't start off horribly bad to deal with, and are only mitigated with time. Your direct damage spell example is a great example of where a huge dice pool will most often be applied to a single, small dice pool, where-as the mundane comparison will be a huge dice pool, applied to multiple, larger dicepools. Of course, I don't want you to overlook Spirits/Elementals, and their awe inspiring uses, and powers. This puts Shadowrun 4th Edition in an interesting position. Because Magic is already a very, very, very potent tool, the developers have several routes to take. The first is that they can leave Magic as the most powerful force in the latest edition, and people will choose their archetypes on love for the concept, rather than Out-Of-Character knowledge of Game Mechanics. Of course, if the developers decided to mask their love affair with fantasy over technology, they could expand on the power of the more mudane pursuits, by releasing new munchkinized cyberware, or bioware, new anti-magic techniques, items, and qualities. However, this creates a new problem, as now without either elite hacking skills, bone-chilling degrees of augmentation, or fantastic Magic-Uber-Skillz, you'll end up with a PC that's sort of up shit's creek when it comes to game balance. This leads to the ultimate solution: Express with your GM and fellow players your concerns about the potential abuse of Magic, and undue fluxuations in power level, and come to terms with In-Character fallout that isn't explicitly stated by raw numbers mechanics. This forum has countless examples of proposed fallout for abusive Magic activity, but rehash some personal suggestions I've found helpful over the years, your GM can introduce dangerous threats that specifically target awakened characters, dramatically increase law enforcement response to unlicensed magical activity, or more heavily enforce background/aspected-background/mana-dead/warp/whatever zones. Hope that helps. Oh. And always GTMF. (Geek the Mage First.) |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:25 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
LOL! Yes, theoretically anyone who puts 15BP into being a magician is a magician. However, it actually takes a lot more than that if you want to hae a chance of actually doing anything with your magic. |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:34 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
LOL! Yes, theoretically anyone who puts 15BP into being a magician is a magician and has access to the unlimited potential of magic. Which is why words like Bang-For-Your-Buck were strung together, rather than, say, Immediate-Game-Breaking-Power. I'd hoped the point did not need to be made using the Triple Entente of bold, italics, and underline. |
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 Oct 16 2006, 04:40 PM
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#13
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,497 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Interesting. The SR4 core book, however, does not state, that Physical Drain cannot be healed, it's simply damage like any other, and the default assumption is, that it can be healed. Probably an oversight from the SR3 -> SR4 conversion (since in SR3 you definitely could not heal drain). Bye Thanee |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:44 PM
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#14
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,497 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
On Topic:
I think magic is fine in general. It's powerful, yes, but that is kinda the point. And as others have stated, it's not the only way to let the bodies drop. What I do consider overpowered is overcasting. The drain should be higher (someone had a good house rule, where you only halve the Force up to your Magic for Drain purposes, the Force points that go beyond Magic are fully taken as Drain - i.e. Mag 4 a Mana Bolt 4 does 2 DV, a Mana Bolt 5 does 3 DV, a Mana Bolt 6 does 4 DV, and so on). Bye Thanee |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:45 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
It does however state that damage from overcasting can't be healed by magic. I also recall a little rule that the max number of hits is equal ot the force of the spell. Also you still get armor for numerious spells even if its only half impact. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:01 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Huh. I missed that, and my Search-Fu is looking a little weak. You got a link to that thread, by any chance? :) |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:03 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Actually it's the close to the least bang for your buck you can get for a positive quality, because by itself Magician is almost completely useless. In standard english, bang-for-your-buck equates to return-on-your-investment. There is almost 0 return on the investment of 15 BP into the Magician quality. All it does is open up your access to a huge BP and karma sink. It's the worst way possible for a huge number of characters to spend 15 BP. Saying it's the best bang for your buck is like saying that because a megacorp can grow from a :nuyen: 75,000 startup corporation the best bang for your buck is to put the 15BP into getting 75K and then investing that in a business. You've completely ignored all the other things required to change that startup investment into something worthwhile. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:14 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
/cast control thoughts
you're imagining things. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:16 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
What happends when you use stunbolt on a target using a stim pack.
I also think people are forgeting this little rule. "A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force serves as a limiter effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell. Overcasting" Page 171 |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:19 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
They take the damage and ignore the penalties.
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Oct 16 2006, 05:21 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
It's a given rule of life in SR that you require magical support to run for any length of time.
A single mage can provide counterspelling for his entire team, greatly upping their chances of survival. 20 dice pools are not at all uncommon on either magical or non-magical sides. Magic seems to require the most compensation, if you're running against it. I don't know if that means overpowered, or just intricate. A sniper with AP rounds can be just as ugly, as can a tricked out Sammy with an Alpha. But magic requires you to have counterspelling, and to remember that line of sight is the be all end all of the mage. And stim packs allow you to ignore stun penalties, that's all. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:26 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
No, you silly little man. That's a horrible analogy. I've got a much better one. It's like this: Without spending that 15 BP, you will never be able to have 0.000001 points of essence, and 24 points of magic, Move-By-Wire-XI, and a magical rail gun that fires bolts from hell out of your ass. At best, you will be allowed to have a bunch of skills and attributes maxed, and a bunch of cyberware By spending that 15 BP, however, you increase you Potential nigh infinitely. (There's those silly underline/itallics/bolding, again.) And thus, allow yourself to not only reach a point in your little gamer life of having everything that a mundane could have, ever, end of story, three times over, but -also-, still, be able to flatulate up a force 57 fireball. If I was exagerating anything, I apologize. I was just completely caught off guard by the complete insanity of your comment. So. To recap. When you spend a mere 15 BP, you immediately open up the door to someday, somewhere, be an immortal God who wears slippers made out of baby seal skin. If you do not, you will forever wonder how people can somehow rise up to defend 4th Edition magic -not- being a powerful tool, that is pretty damn affordable when it comes down to it. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:38 PM
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#23
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...15 BPs in High Pain Tolerance = no wound modifiers until the character actually goes down. Really nice when you end up taking a combo of Stun & physical. You still get your entire DPs for attacks, defence, getting away, etc...
That is a good investment. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:45 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
That is a pretty good investment. Definitely agree. Plenty of utility, and not over-priced.
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Oct 16 2006, 05:50 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Cost: 15,000 Avail: 20F |
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