 Shadowrun 4th Edition, Online, ...And how to impliment it. |
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 Oct 16 2006, 03:02 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346  |
Introduction:
My first, and second attempts at this introduction turned out entirely too long winded. Let me suffice it to say that my RPG experience is almost exclusively inside of a 24/7, live-roleplay text-based online environment, run by a handful of staff members, with a playerbase that would not fit comfortably in most people's living rooms. The hours I've logged in this sort of environment absolutely dwarf any tabletop campaigns. The genre has been alive for some time, with several of my fellow text-based gamers going at it for well over a decade, and it is a genre of RPGs that is, quite obviously, not limited merely to Shadowrun. The change from Shadowrun 2nd edition, to Shadowrun 3rd edition was a fairly smooth change. However, from 3rd to 4th is seeming a bit more daunting. We've already been able to write the majority of the themeatic backbone of our setting, but implimenting mechanics is another thing altogether. So, that said, I'd like to poll what I believe is the single largest collection of experienced Shadowrun players in the World: The Dumpshock Forums. The Question: What/How would you do/change to 4th edition to play in the above environment? The Stipulations: Keep in mind this genre of roleplay is run by multiple GMs, who provide a 24/7 tabletop experience, that consists of both active shadowrunning, as well as roleplayed 'downtime'. Excessive houserules run the risk of alienating players who are interested in the genre, but unfamiliar with the ruleset. Additionally, this genre of gaming doesn't 'reset' at the end of a campaign. The duration of one single 'campaign' lasted the entire duration of an edition of Shadowrun, from launch, to completion (And, incidentially, is -still- going on, in lieu of upgrading to 4th edition.) Players are free to allow their character to accumulate karma, with no limit imposed on growth potential other than their own motivation to participate in the game, or their own ability to stay alive. (Yes, in some rare cases, players have refused to let go of their PCs even as they slowly, but surely, hit the 500 Karma marks.) And alternately, a player can just as easily retire their character, and go back through character generation to begin with a fresh concept. The Solution: So, once more: How does 4th Edition Shadowrun need to be changed? Does it at all? What are your opinions, as fellow Dumpshockers, if -you- were playing in a game environment that didn't stop, when you did, had unlimited growth potential, and lacked the fine degree of control that a single GM in a tabletop environment had. I've really like to know, as our project team is having a few disputes regarding which direction to take this latest edition of the game. |
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Oct 16 2006, 03:28 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
One serious concern your going to have to look at since campaigns just don't end are Mages and Technomancers. Magic and Resonance doesn't cap. They could get seriously insanely powerful, with enough karma invested.
I don't necessarily think anything needs to be changed from the rules. Of course I don't know exactly how you have this online game implemented. Is it a MUD, MOO, or something else. Is there an actual established, built online world or do the GMs create the world just like tabletop session. Could you clarify a bit more about what this is? |
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Oct 16 2006, 03:34 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
MUX. The environment consists of 'rooms' which hold descriptions based on anything from a regional zone, down to a specific pier-side cafe. No, it doesn't have coded 'Encounters' or 'Roaming Bad Guys' like a MUD. All rolls (Using a +roll code), with few exceptions, are taken by connected staff members, identically to the manner of which a GM would take them in a tabletop session, to include visible, or 'hidden', or player-list-specific rolls.
And yes. The near-limitless expansion of magic has always been a problem with Shadowrun, particularly inside of this type of RPG genre. |
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Oct 16 2006, 03:40 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
I too would need more details about how the "world" is set up.
I would suggest that you stick to RAW, with possibly the tweak rule options in the BBB. I wouldn't worry about the no-cap on magic and resonnance, not if you have chars that have over 500 karma. It would take something like 294 karma to raise magic from 6 to 12 (attribute and initiation). No new spells, or skills. In that time, your sammy or other chars, can have accumulated a fortune for delta implants, etc... |
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Oct 16 2006, 03:45 PM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
How did you handle it previously? Or was is basically a case of most longterm characters were awakened in some way. I checked out, I think, Awake 2062 a while back and the percent of the population that was Adept seemed 'high'. Although they do have coded NPC encounters. @Mistwalker: It's likely only going to start being an issue in the 800-1000 karma range. Of course how much of an issue it is depends a lot what the game play is like. If it doesn't support mages enough to give them their full RAW power then it is likely only Adepts that would get dodgy, and even then given the extra karma costs for Adepts in SR4 they'd only have some superhuman qualities. Mainly in those powers that bypass the Attribute cap (apparently :please: , yes I'm looking at you Power Throw). |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:24 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
That really depends on the site. But no, being awakened was not a pre-requisite for a long term character. To be honest, I'm having difficulty pulling up more than a handful of names of awakened character's that managed to continue on into the 500+ karma range. But to answer your question, some games have allowed awakened character's to run amuck, or even encouraged a high magic population. Others have instituted quotas, above and beyond the character application process, dealing with needed slots inside various organizations for awakaned characters. One game that comes to mind, set in something of an edgy, cyberpunked out London, actually allowed magic to run as it was written in canon, but chopped cyberware cost and availability dramatically, and enforced theme that made the game more 'punk' friendly, with heavy In Character restrictions on the use of unlicensed magic. Personally, (I believe) we'll be taking a middle road, that involves plenty of In-Character repurcussions for Magic getting out of hand, in addition to a few long term incentives for non-awakened characters. But I think it would not be prudent to actually institute quotas, and thus actively stiffle a player's sovereign creativity.
I'm not familiar with Awake 2062. Generally speaking, most games are named after the city that they are created around. I.E, Shadowrun: Seattle, Shadowrun: Denver, Shadowrun: New York City, Shadowrun: Hong Kong, Shadowrun: Istanbul, etc. And coded NPC encounters are not integrated into the game. All NPCs are directly controlled by 'live' play from a Game-Master, excepting a 'Player-Run-Plot', which allows players to act as 'limited' game masters for minor, non-metaplot affecting adventures.
Sure thing. As noted, the world consists of 'rooms' (referred to as such, for coding purposes) that encompass anything from a very small (The interior of a vehicle), to very large (The downtown Region). Rooms 'break up' or 'break down' depending on the scope. For instance, an 'Eastern Downtown room' would have textual description of the Downtown region, with exits that lead to specific neighborhoods in downtown, each with their own descriptions, and each neighbor, further, may have specific locations, such as a local Bar, or Barber Shop, or really anything. Regions have exits to other regions, and so a character 'navigates' from the code perspective, by moving from room to room. From an 'In Character' perspective, of course, they're traveling city streets, rumaging through sewers, screeching through traffic, or leaping from building-tops backset by a pale, full moon - All of this hinging, of course, on what is appropriate for the scene that is set. Needless to say, simply because a 'room' is not 'hardcoded' someplace, does not mean the city lacks such a location. It just means that it needs to be written into the scene, and an actual 'room' object added to the grid can occur if demand for continue use of the location exists. Example: A stuffer shack may exist, In Character, every few blocks downtown, but there may only be one 'Stuffer Shack Room' placed on the grid. This does not mean that there is a single Stuffer Shack in the entire city, but rather, that for purposes of not overcomplicating things, only a single 'room' has been dedicated to a particular Stuffer Shack. Players are free to 'pose' (That is, roleplay) additional stuffer shacks, if appropriate. All of that, of course, is secondary. For all intents and purposes, and for ease of imagining, just consider it a really, really big table-top game, with multiple collaborating Game Masters, where people sit at their keyboard, instead of in each other's living rooms. For a metaphor, it fits nearly perfectly. So... Getting back to 'tweaks' in the BBB - What specifically do you feel will be conducive to this type of environment? Magic seems to be the current concern, as I expected. What other suggestions or alternations may be prudent? |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:29 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
The only thing I can think of then off the top of my head is making sure you define the ambiguous. The one I have in mind is hacking. Everyone has their own way of how hacking works per raw. I would suggest reading Serbitar's Guide to the Matrix. You can find it here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12797 I would also suggest looking at some of his other guides too. Serbitar's house rules could also be helpful in giving you an idea of what you might need to fix or live with. |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:29 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No changes needed really. It sounds like you've got a PC version of a tabletop game, and SR4 runs fineo n the tabletop.
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Oct 16 2006, 04:34 PM
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#9
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
RAW Game Mechanics <> Gameplay.
Adjusting the base mechanics may help influence the play, but ultimately it is entirely up to GM policy and enforcement to generate play style and rules to achieve the overall game effect you want. It's very likely the same problems you have in SR3 are the same type of problems in SR4, just to greater or lesser degrees. Game Environment --> Policy --> Game Mechanics Only at the point at which the game mechanics directly interfere with intended environment and policy do you need to alter the game mechanics. To answer your question though... What problems do you currently have and what is the example of how you have solved it? (We can take a look at a comparable issue in SR3 and see if hte same solution works or not) What kind of problems do you expect? It will be much more useful to describe a very specific problem, then you get a detailed and specific answers to consider. |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:38 PM
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#10
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Your most effective tool is the shared communication with the admin team to execute and deliver a consistent environment for the players. In regards to the BBB, I wouldn't change anything. But I would do everything to ensure the most consistent interpetation of the rules by the admin team. There are some gaps in the book that leave a lot to intepretation and if the admins run things differently from each other at different events, then that would lead to problems. |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:39 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I've looked them over, and can appreciate the changes. However, I'm concerned, once again, about alienating players. "Buy the Fanpro books, read them, and refer to them for most of your questions," is a much easier approach than, "Buy the Fanpro books, read them, refer to them, then cross-reference to these house rules." -- This is especially true as not all players chargenning will have a great depth of experience in the Shadowrun ruleset, despite their Roleplay experience. So, I'm looking at implimenting the most essential, but least invasive changes possible. Ideally, players won't have to read much more than a few paragraphs to understand the changes between our gameplay, and the core rules. Additionally, this saves us the trouble of backdating houserules, or reversing them, as Fanpro continues to release suppliments. |
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Oct 16 2006, 04:57 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
To be honest, there wasn't a great deal of problems in Shadowrun 3rd edition, and it translated very well into an open ended, potentially limitless game. Skills were only 'theoretically' capped by incrementally more expensive costs to raise, and the basic mechanic dice mechanics of the game helped enforce the notion that even the very best fail against impossible odds, and even a rookie can get lucky sometimes. The most difficult part was integrating all the different archetypes together on a run. Shadowrun 4th Edition did an excellent job of addressing this, however, by giving Decker's a greater degree of 'onsite' utility. This, and speeding up the gameplay a bit, are two aspects of 4th Edition that I'll be forever grateful of.
I'm concerned about character advancement and min-maxing, for one. I'm currently sitting in the 'Attributes are too cheap' and 'Skills are too expensive' camp, but after some playtesting, an alternative to the proposed standard character generation won't be appropriate. If the costs of attribute raises are raised however, I believe that will just backdate min/maxing into character generation - Which, of course, is an issue that can be mitigated in the character application/Staff-approval process. Additionally, yes, one thing that I very much agree with so far, is that a clear, concise definition of terms, and effects amoung staff will be key - I'll definitely be taking that back with me, when we sit down again to discuss site policy. Additionally, I do have some concern about mundane character's capping their potential a bit prematurely. Shadowrun 4th edition has moved the Magic vs. Mundane 'Power' arguement not only from 'power' but also potential. On the other hand, removing skill caps may turn out to be overly drastic. Additionally, beyond these few concerns here, I just wanted to have the matter looked at with a fresh pair of eyes. We're so focused on our style of gaming, that it's nice to have another perspective dropped into the mix. So, I definitely appreciate the feedback. :) |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:06 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
The rule tweak that I was mostly thinking of is on p69, grittier section, 1st tweak.
That tweak is to limit the number of successes to no more than 2x the skill. I believe that this may help with your concern about attibute vs skill concern. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:10 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
That's the other reason I suggested not changing anything, although I should have qualified that a bit. I've run online games (mostly arenas where minmaxing is a matter of course) for about 4 years now, and house rules are the bane of my existence, but a necessary evil. When I said it worked great on the tabletop I wasn't thinking from a multiplayer online viewpoint. Around the tabletop it's relatively easy to come to a quick agreement on anything that might be a little over the top. Online though you've got a lot more people wanting to break the rules. I'd suggest looking very closely as agents and mind control magic. A quick search will turn up several threads about how devestating those can be when left unchecked. Also, in at least one thread here a FanPro person has said that unbound spirits on remote services are meant to be limited to one. I'd follow that rule to avoid a streaming supply of spirits doing work instead of characters. |
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Oct 16 2006, 05:31 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I totally agree. Hence the concern.
Noted and appreciated. It's been my experience that mind control magic is usually the breaking point of most RPGs, so hopefully, we'll be able to pool our collective experience and sense together when we deal with it on our grid. I'll take that spirit/remote services to heart.
Definitely a valid suggestion. Thanks for bringing that back to my attention. Anyone else out there? |
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Oct 16 2006, 06:28 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Apart from redoing the matrix rules (which doesn't sound like you want to do), there are really just fuzzy points that would need to be more clearly defined.
Like: When rigging, why do riggers use Agility for Gunnery? How do partial Cyberlimbs add damage boxes compared to full cyberlimbs? How are the hit boxes for vehicles determined? |
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Oct 16 2006, 07:20 PM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
The only problem is that there is so much in the official books that is left to the GM to decide for his playgroup's particular style. One classic example is encumbrance. A rule is provided for how much weight a character can carry, yet the designers deliberately and specifically left the question of how much any piece of gear actually weighs is left for individual playgroups to decide. The Hacking rules have some notable gaps. When Bull, one of the admins here and also a FanPro freelancer, solicited questions for what was to be an unofficial Hacking FAQ (and later got passed on to the developers at FanPro who are in the process of putting together an official FAQ), there were several questions that he had to admit were simply unanswerable by the Rules as Written. And while some of those unanswerable questions deal with obscure corner cases, others dealt with core issues such as how many initiative passes characters are supposed to get when operating in augmented reality, and how agents and commlinks work. The magic rules also have areas that require GM policy-making, and this is after the release of the Magic sourcebook. The freelancer who did the section on warding, for example, has posted clarifications on his blog, because he feels that the way the rules appear in print don't reflect his intent, and is lobbying with the folks at FanPro to add his clarifications as official FAQ/errata. That's not the only issue, I can think of a few others, for example the power level of blood spirits. I can fully understand wanting to avoid having a lengthy set of houserules for your players to cross-reference, so I'd say your best bet is to at the very least wait for FanPro to put out their FAQ for the core SR4 rules, the next revision of the core rules errata, and the rest of the splatbooks for the major rules sections. I'm tempted to say that it'd be worth it to wait on errata and FAQs for the splatbooks as well. Even then, I have a feeling that a houserule & GM Guidelines and Policies document will be unavoidable. |
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Oct 16 2006, 08:27 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
SandS? honestly? don't play SR4. i'm not saying this because i dislike SR4 (though i do), but because SR4 is not designed for that type of play. the entire basis of the game system will break for every single character in a relatively short time, because of the small difference between starting-level and the utter peak of ability. fixing that would require a lot, lot, lot more work than updating SR3 (which is, in and of itself, a hell of a lot of work).
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Oct 16 2006, 08:33 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Mmm... Yeah. Definitely a daunting task.
You understand, then, why I'm polling Dumpshock for some suggestions. 8) |
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Oct 16 2006, 09:01 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Follow up on the Cyberlimbs: Do Cyberhands affect gunfire? Not arms, but simply hands.
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Oct 16 2006, 11:03 PM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Are you deliberately not telling us the address/name of the MUX to which you are referring?
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Oct 17 2006, 06:51 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
I'm more interested in the topic at hand, than plugging any specific sites floating around out there. |
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Oct 17 2006, 08:21 AM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, in other words, yes.
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Oct 17 2006, 09:59 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
So, in other words: I've left out specific address information because it does not pertain to the direction I would like the thread to head. I think that was more of a subconcious intention, than a deliberate intention, when sitting down and creating this thread.
Definitely a concern. How can that be mitigated, in a minimally invasive fashion? Would increasing the cost of attribute raises be sufficient? Decreasing the cost of skill raises? Does uncapping skills and/or attributes, in addition to cost changes address that? If that is your largest concern, can you fix it by finesse, rather than brute forcing the system?
I believe we'll be using this. Definitely looks like it's going to help. Thanks again for that specific suggestion, and everyone elses' input. I've got a running notepad file open, taking notes. |
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Oct 17 2006, 12:52 PM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Not really in your case since it appears you don't have automaticed MOBs and Karma. It takes making a gimped character at 400 BP focused on one narrow field at least 300 karma (and some cash), with exclusion of any other advancement, to hit the top of a field in Active Skills. That is before relavent Knowledge skills, which should matter in your case since you use meat GMs. Having meat GMs also means it should be easier to have a wider range of relavent Skills in play. So do you expect your player characters to reach the 1000 karma range in a "relatively short time"? If so you might want to rethink your karma awards. If not then no real worries of the "breaking". |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 24th April 2024 - 07:44 PM |
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