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Zen Shooter01
post Oct 16 2006, 09:44 PM
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Snipers get talked about on this board alot as dangerous ubercharacters. I'd like to inject a dose of reality into the sniper.

First, real world sniper rifles usually don't do more damage than assault rifles, nor do they have magical armor piercing qualities. Most sniper rifles - note I do not say antimaterial rifles, which are a different thing - are actually chambered for the same rounds used in assault rifles. The advantage of the sniper rifle is its pinpoint accuracy and long reach. Not specifically relevant to SR, but I had to get it off my chest.

Second, a skilled sniper firing from a concealed position is very dangerous. But that's a lot easier said than done. First, you have to know where your target is going to be, and when. Then, you have to have access to a good shooting position at the target time. You have to do all this carrying a large weapon and without anyone noticing you, whether that's your target, local law enforcement, or the neighbors. Then you have to get away after the target is eliminated.

Third, most targets know snipers exist. They will deliberately take steps to avoid the danger. Like taking virtual meetings. Or meeting face-to-face in an airport terminal or in front of the city courthouse, or in a subway station somewhere where the physical security is free or the sightlines don't work.

It's not just a matter of damage codes.
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lorechaser
post Oct 16 2006, 09:46 PM
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Everything is a matter of damage codes.

You don't need a sightline when you can still drop a target through a wall. ;) Thermal Imaging makes sniping fun!
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RunnerPaul
post Oct 16 2006, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
Thermal Imaging makes sniping fun!

Only if your GM's view on how thermal imaging works is founded solely on movies such as Blue Thunder and Robocop, and not on how it works in real life.

In Real Life, the only time thermal imaging can show you where someone is when they're behind a wall is if:

A. The wall is thin.
B. The wall is made out of a thermally conductive material such as sheet metal
C. The person is close enough to the wall to warm it up (typically by say, leaning on it)
D. They stay in that spot long enough to cause a temperature difference on the side of the wall you can see with your thermographic.
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lorechaser
post Oct 16 2006, 09:55 PM
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Have you played Shadowrun yet? ;)

A less flippant answer would make use of imaging cameras combined with smartgun links and a tracking system.

Since I'm always in favor of flippant, and short on time, I'll leave that for someone else to make....
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OneTrikPony
post Oct 16 2006, 10:17 PM
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What are the common real world sniper calibers?

I use 30'06 which i think is .762 my budy has a sweet 7mm. These are common hunting rifles but do millitary snipers use them?
I'm pretty sure .308 is a common sniper calibur but I'm not aware of any "assault rifles" in the .308.

BTW, isnt damage a factor of both caliber and velocity? I think a kalishnikov(sp?) uses the same slug as my rifle but i don't think they use the same cartridge and i know they don't have the same range or tragectory. So, for shadowrun purposes couldn't you have two weapons with the same calibur but different damage codes and/ or AP values?

As far as game play I agree that the sniper isn't "Uber" because a sniper is realy two characters; one to do legwork and soak up dammage while the sniper sets up for the shot. It's a good point. in the future i plan to accessoriez all my rifles with smartlink, image scopes, and an Ork hacker.

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Mistwalker
post Oct 16 2006, 10:20 PM
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I don't go for the robocop thermal either.

You can't see thru walls with thermal.
I will allow someone to use a remote camera tied into their Commlink, to fire their weapon at the target, with a penalty, but not as much as blind fire. Of course, they do not get any benefit of their smartlink when they make that shot.
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kzt
post Oct 16 2006, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
First, real world sniper rifles usually don't do more damage than assault rifles, nor do they have magical armor piercing qualities. Most sniper rifles - note I do not say antimaterial rifles, which are a different thing - are actually chambered for the same rounds used in assault rifles. The advantage of the sniper rifle is its pinpoint accuracy and long reach. Not specifically relevant to SR, but I had to get it off my chest.

The typical snipers round, a .308 softpoint, does enormous damage to personnel. The wound channel is enormous. The comment in the last edition of the NATO emergency war surgery manual that accompanied the wound profile; "The 7.62 NATO soft-point is a popular big game hunting bullet, and although shooting accidents are not infrequent with such rounds, they are rarely seen in the hospital since few victims of torso shots survive."

http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/Ope...rojectiles.html
http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/Ope...ures/Fig11.html

It doesn't penetrate armor worth a damn, but SR has always ignored that that weapon wounding effects and armor penetration tend to be inversely correlated. (This isn't as stupid as the way it handles telescopic sights, but it's right up there.) But snipers typically shoot where the target isn't armored, so that doesn't matter much.

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Lagomorph
post Oct 16 2006, 10:36 PM
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I'd say most people here try and dissuade people from playing snipers in SR. From my experience they're almost never where the action is, and usually are played as not-team-players/lone-wolfs which is boring to the rest of the team. They're dangerous by the numbers because of their high skill and high damage code, but by no means urbercharacters.

That being said, my understanding is that real sniping is done in pairs and is a very team work oriented process, but for it to be useful, you'd need a full military for intellience and support. My understanding is that .223 and .308 are the most common calibers for sniper rifles, using high quality match cartridges and high quality rifles. I'm sure austere emancipator or raygun will have volumes of work to expand on what I've said, but as a general rule, I think what I've said holds true. It's just high quality hunting rifles and high quality bullets, with a big scope.

On thermal imaging, you can't even use it to look through windows.
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OneTrikPony
post Oct 16 2006, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE
but SR has always ignored that that weapon wounding effects and armor penetration tend to be inversely correlated.


? meaning that higher AP = lower DV?
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DireRadiant
post Oct 16 2006, 11:04 PM
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Mages get talked about on this board alot as dangerous ubercharacters. I'd like to inject a dose of reality into the Mage.

First, real world Mage spells usually don't do more damage than real worldspells, nor do they have magical armor piercing qualities. Most Mage spells - note I do not say antimaterial spells, which are a different thing - are actually chambered for the same elemental effectsused in assault spells. The advantage of the Mage spell is its pinpoint accuracy and long reach. Not specifically relevant to SR, but I had to get it off my chest.

Second, a skilled Mage casting from a concealed position is very dangerous. But that's a lot easier said than done. First, you have to know where your target is going to be, and when. Then, you have to have access to a good casting position at the target time. You have to do all this carrying a large aura and without anyone noticing you, whether that's your target, local law enforcement, or the neighbors. Then you have to get away after the target is eliminated.

Third, most targets know Mages exist. They will deliberately take steps to avoid the danger. Like taking virtual meetings. Or meeting face-to-face in an airport terminal or in front of the city courthouse, or in a subway station somewhere where the physical security is free or the sightlines don't work.

It's not just a matter of damage codes.
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kzt
post Oct 16 2006, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
? meaning that higher AP = lower DV?

Generally speaking.

Bullets work by “depressurizing your circulatory system”, or by damaging or destroying something like your spinal cord. The less damage they do inside you the less likely that a given bulebulletl force you to stop doing whatever caused you to get shot.

The AP round penetrates because it doesn't deform or upset when it hits a solid. So it maintains its velocity so it can punch through armor. Effective AP rounds typically zip right through a person. You get a small entry and an exit wound and if it doesn't directly strike anything vital you can just keep working fine. It will hurt like hell and bleed, but it's unlikely to make you stop doing whatever it was that got you shot. (It may convince you that you should do something else, but it won't typically drop you.)

A hollow point or softpoint deforms on impact, expending to more effectively transfer and producing a bigger wound channel. The bigger the permanent wound channel the more likely it is that something that really matters will get hit. But as it expands against armor it reduces the cross-sectional density and makes it easier to stop.

That's why bronze pistol bullets will go through much soft body armor, because they hold their shape and don't deform. But they are also not going to do nearly as much damage to an unarmored target as a good hollowpoint that expands to twice its diameter and produces a 4x larger wound channel. And a bronze pistol bullet won't go though a rifle plate at all.

It's more complex (particularly with rifles), but that's it in a nutshell. For more info see these:

http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html
http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html
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Zen Shooter01
post Oct 17 2006, 12:26 AM
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kzt:

Thanks for the information regarding the .308. Do victims of .308 wounds really die? I'll remember that when I use my SOCOM II next time.
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Raygun
post Oct 17 2006, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
First, real world sniper rifles usually don't do more damage than assault rifles, nor do they have magical armor piercing qualities. Most sniper rifles - note I do not say antimaterial rifles, which are a different thing - are actually chambered for the same rounds used in assault rifles. The advantage of the sniper rifle is its pinpoint accuracy and long reach. Not specifically relevant to SR, but I had to get it off my chest.

This is incorrect. Sniper rifles are designed to deliver rounds as accurately as possible and generally at significantly greater ranges than assault rifles. As such, the ammunition they fire generally is more powerful. Assault rifles use less powerful rifle ammunition mainly for the purpose of controllability in automatic fire, which sniper rifles don't need to do.

Assault Rifle Cartridges:

5.56x45mm NATO (US M855)
62 grain FMJBT
Muzzle Velocity (M4/M16A2): 2900/3100 fps
Muzzle Energy (M4/M16A2): 1158/1322 fpe
Effective Range (point): 400-550 meters

5.45x39mm M74 (7N6)
50 grain FMJBT
Muzzle Velocity (AK-74M): 2900 fps
Muzzle Energy: 934 fpe
Effective Range (point): 450 meters

7.62x39mm M43 (57-N-231S)
122 grain FMJBT
Muzzle Velocity (AKM): 2380 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1534 fpe
Effective Range (point): 350 meters

5.8x42mm Chinese
64 grain FMJBT
Muzzle Velocity (QZB95): 3050 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1322 fpe
Effective Range (point): 600 meters

Sniper Rifle Cartridges:

7.62x51mm NATO (US M118LR)
175 grain HPBT
Muzzle Velocity (M40A3): 2580 fps
Muzzle Energy: 2586 fpe
Effective Range (point): 1000 meters

7.62x54Rmm (7N1)
152 grain FMJBT
Muzzle Velocity (SVD): 2720 fps
Muzzle Energy: 2497 fpe
Effective Range (point): 1000 meters

8.6x70mm (.338 Lapua)
250 grain HPBT
Muzzle Velocity (L115A1): 2950 fps
Muzzle Energy: 4831 fpe
Effective Range (point): 1500 meters

QUOTE (kzt)
The typical snipers round, a .308 softpoint, does enormous damage to personnel. The wound channel is enormous.

Because most militaries conform to the 1899 Hague, deforming bullets such as softpoints are not issued. Most militaries use non-expanding hollow point boat tail bullets in loads designed for long range use (for example, US M118 and M118LR). In this case, the tip of the bullet is hollow in order to better distribute mass to the rear, providing a more ballistically stable, aerodynamic shape that is capable of retaining velocity at long ranges.

Wound Profiles:

7.62x51mm M80 FMJ
.308 Winchester 150 grain JSP
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 17 2006, 12:47 AM
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Ruling out anti-material rifles, as Zen Shooter01 did in the OP, the most common sniper rifle caliber in the Western world is the 7.62x51mm NATO(/.308 Winchester), with .338 Lapua and .300 Winchester Magnum and trailing quite a ways behind. All firearms officially termed "sniper rifles" in the US military are, I believe, chambered in at least .308 Winchester -- the accurized 5.56x45mm rifles with telescopic sights are called "designated marksman rifles" or similar, meant for a different role from actual sniper rifles. Generally speaking, if one says "sniper rifle", the image invoked tends to be of a rifle in a caliber from 7.62x51mm to .338 Lapua. There is reason to believe this range will crawl upwards in the Shadowrun world, as law enforcement organizations and militaries would most likely go from 7.62x51mm to .338 Lapua as soon as the threat of trolls became real.

Assault rifles are chambered for rounds significantly less powerful then 7.62x51mm. The Western assault rifle standard, the 5.56x45mm NATO, and the Soviet standards, the older 7.62x39mm (of AK-47 fame) and the newer 5.45x39mm, range from around 1100 to 1500 ft-lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle when fired out of full size assault rifles, whereas common 7.62x51mm loads average around 2400-2800 ft-lbs. The .300 Winchester Magnum is much heftier, in the 3500-3800 ft-lbs range, while the .338 Lapua can be loaded hot enough to generate about 5000 ft-lbs.

Kinetic energy in and of itself is not necessarily a useful indicator of what kind of damage to tissues or penetration of armor you can expect of a particular loading (a specific bullet with a specific amount of a particular type of propellant, etc.), but it does indicate the terminal effect potential the caliber has, especially when comparisons are done between relatively similar projectiles -- in this case high velocity rifle rounds.

In other words, with the right ammunition, common sniper rifle calibers will outperform common assault rifle calibers in armor penetration and tissue damage by a large margin. This is also pretty obvious when comparing the kind of wound cavity expected from a .223 Remington JSP to one from a .308 Winchester SP, and from the fact that the M995 5.56x45mm armor piercing round fired from an M16 assault rifle penetrates 6mm of armor steel whereas the M993 7.62x51mm AP round from an M240 GPMG penetrates 12mm of armor steel. At the upper end of the sniper rifle caliber scale, a .338 Lapua AP round will penetrate 20mm of armor steel, or with deforming ammunition will completely fuck up an adult human torso.

The fact that they're firing more energetic projectiles is not why they're dangerous, of course. A shotgun can be just as deadly at close range, or you could always use a 7.62x51m battle rifle. Sniper rifles aren't chambered for powerful cartridges just to more completely destroy human targets either -- .338 Lapua sniper rifles didn't increase in popularity because people thought 7.62x51mm wasn't enough for killing humans, but because the faster, heavier bullets allow accurate, effective fire at longer ranges. I'm definitely with the thread starter on the relatively limited useof snipers: they are very good at one thing, but that one thing is often far from the optimal solution to a problem.

QUOTE (kzt)
It doesn't penetrate armor worth a damn, but SR has always ignored that that weapon wounding effects and armor penetration tend to be inversely correlated.

I would assume even the softest .308s will still penetrate any flexible body armor most of the time, because of the extreme velocity and the kinetic energy. Check out the performance of a 168 gr Hornady TAP vs. layered body armor at the Box O' Truth, for example. AFAICT, nearly any common type of ammunition fired from .223 Remingtons or any rifle more powerful than that is not going to bother overmuch about soft body armor. Rifle plates are another matter, of course, but those are always tested against FMJs or amor piercing designs anyway.

QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
BTW, isnt damage a factor of both caliber and velocity? I think a kalishnikov(sp?) uses the same slug as my rifle but i don't think they use the same cartridge and i know they don't have the same range or tragectory. So, for shadowrun purposes couldn't you have two weapons with the same calibur but different damage codes and/ or AP values?

The AK-47 is chambered in 7.62x39mm M43, which is very different from the .308 Winchester. All the internal dimensions of weapons designed to fire them are different, down to the bore diameter -- the projectile diameter of a 7.62x39mm is, if I remember correctly, a few thousandths of an inch larger.

If you're interested in learning more about firearms, I'd suggest checking the article on them at Wikipedia, and of course the Basics at Raygun's site.

[Edit]Augh, beaten by 2 minutes! That's the difference physical sources you can refer to make, or else remembering all those ballistics by heart...

Perhaps there ought to be some further explanation on just what kind of difference in terminal effect you can expect from some of these calibers with non-armor piercing solids, such as standard ball/FMJ rounds, which, as Raygun pointed out, are what military snipers overwhelmingly work with. On the other hand, I expect everybody here who's interested in that stuff already understands it rather well.[/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 17 2006, 12:56 AM
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James McMurray
post Oct 17 2006, 12:55 AM
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Generally speaking the well informed party sniper is scary. Then the team finds themselves going up against someone that knows about him and has a sniper or two of their own. When the team radios for sniper support all they get is static.
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Jack Kain
post Oct 17 2006, 01:04 AM
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Glass blocks thermal imaging too.
A sniper is most dangerious because they can easily take numerious take aim actions before making a called shot to add 4 to the DV of the weapon.
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Raygun
post Oct 17 2006, 01:13 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Augh, beaten by 2 minutes! That's the difference physical sources you can refer to make, or else remembering all those ballistics by heart...

Sorry, man. ;)

I really did have to reference most of that (getting rusty!). You probably started your post before I did, but I went for less detail than you. Anyway, I agree with what you've said.
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Zeitgeist
post Oct 17 2006, 01:32 AM
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God bless you, DireRadiant.

If there's anyone out there who looks at SR as a mirror for RL, they need to get their heads checked. Now then, on with the sniper info.
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Clyde
post Oct 17 2006, 02:57 AM
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Sniping can be made more difficult/interesting by the use of some of the less obvious rules that might apply.

For example, shooting someone in cold blood, whom you can see clearly through a telescopic sight, might well call for a Composure Check. Not a lot of stereotypical "sniper" characters will max out the Willpower and Charisma needed to reliably pass this.

Climbing into a high perch could obviously call for a Climb skill check.

Snipers are often exposed to the elements for long period of time, which might call for a Willpower + Survival check.

Camouflage (of use to snipers), is actually a specialization of the disguise skill. Setting up that nigh-undetectable spider hole calls for a skills most characters never take.

Sniping calls for acute powers of observation. Fail that Perception check to see your target and you might as well have stayed home.

While there aren't rules for endurance, per se, sniping would call for remaining in a potentially uncomfortable position for long periods of time. I suppose a Body + Willpower roll could settle this, with some negative consequences for failure.

There's always the fun possibility of a counter-sniper out there. This can set up a really tense, role playing heavy duel, or it can just be a convenient way to get rid of an inconvenient character. :)
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Jaid
post Oct 17 2006, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (Zeitgeist)
God bless you, DireRadiant.

If there's anyone out there who looks at SR as a mirror for RL, they need to get their heads checked. Now then, on with the sniper info.

actually, there's a post kicking around somewhere (in the general boards maybe?) where someone was comparing SR magic to RL magic...

i recall seeing it when someone brought up the point that people don't try to compare RL magic to SR magic like they do with RL guns vs SR guns =D
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kzt
post Oct 17 2006, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (kzt)
The typical snipers round, a .308 softpoint, does enormous damage to personnel. The wound channel is enormous.

Because most militaries conform to the 1899 Hague, deforming bullets such as softpoints are not issued. Most militaries use non-expanding hollow point boat tail bullets in loads designed for long range use (for example, US M118 and M118LR). In this case, the tip of the bullet is hollow in order to better distribute mass to the rear, providing a more ballistically stable, aerodynamic shape that is capable of retaining velocity at long ranges.

Police are not signatories to these, so they don't have to play that game. Of course, wacky things can still happen. I was told by a usually reliable source about a guy who had a brain hemisphere destroyed by a sniper, and still managed to shoot a couple of cops before he realized he was dead. Supposedly in Denver IIRC, but I've never found the actual incident.

The Miami shootout where the mortally wounded Platt proceeded to run around for several minutes and shoot 4 FBI agents, killing two, before being killed by a head shot is another example of why real world gunfights are unpredictable.
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OneTrikPony
post Oct 17 2006, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE
First, real world Mage spells usually don't do more damage than real worldspells...
ROFL! OMG, dude too cool. I thought i was going to die laughing.
QUOTE
note I do not say antimaterial spells, which are a different thing - are actually chambered for the same elemental effectsused in assault spells.
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Zen Shooter01
post Oct 17 2006, 04:24 AM
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Yeah, regarding that.

When you ground a fictional universe in reality, it's an improvement. Verisimilitude. Willing suspension of disbelief. Et cetera.

Also, the point of my post was to give GMs some counter-sniper strategies to keep PC snipers from trampling on game balance.

I am, in fact, aware that SR does not and will never model the real world perfectly. But a little nudge in the direction is desirable.

I am not and will probably never be a millionaire, but if I saw an opportunity to earn $500, I'd take it.
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OneTrikPony
post Oct 17 2006, 04:35 AM
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Zen Shooter01,

dude i wasn't mocking you, if the comparison between RP and RL wasn't important, i wouldn't be reading this thread and no one would have posted. Ya gotta admit that DireRadiant is fukin funny.
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mfb
post Oct 17 2006, 04:52 AM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant)
[attempted reductio ad absurdum]

that was just whimsy, right? not an actual attempt at comparing mages and snipers? if it was just a joke, ignore the following. if not:

without touching the 'real-world spells' thing, not even with a ten-foot pole, there's no such thing as an antimateriel spell. there are spells that are effective against both materiel and personnel, and spells that are effective against materiel but not personnel, but there are no spells that are of increased effectiveness against materiel while retaining standard effectiveness against personnel.

mages have a much easier time getting around in society than do people attempting to carry around 3-foot-long (or more!) rifles; simply having a mage's aura is not, in most cases, grounds for people calling security. a concealed casting point is just one that allows you to see your target; a concealed sniping point is one that allows you to get a 3-foot rifle in line with both the target and your eye, without being too awkward to get a good sight picture from.

and while everyone knows mages exist, not everyone knows the best way to foil them. the examples you copied from the original post, for instance, would be completely ineffective.

in short, your absurdities are absurd. if they were meant to be, lol. if not, BOOM HEADSHOT!
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