Optimal Team Makeup, New campaign, looking for ideas... Options

[wargear]

Not too long ago I read a thread on Team Building. It had some good ideas, but now I'm looking to apply them. I am looking to start a new campaign with a pregenerated team. A well-oiled shadowrunning machine.

To that end I'm looking for ideas on actual team makeup, 3rd ed for now, with a solid balance between combat and non-combat skills and abilities.

The point of this? The players will be able to leap straight into the game, and get a real idea of just how dangerous the setting is when they get their arses handed to them by Lone Star. Then they can create a new batch of regular starting characters of their own choice as their regular characters. Hopefully with a healthy respect for the Star. ;)

[eidolon]

I would think that you'll be pretty well set with the standard

sammy
mage
decker
rigger
face.

How many players? Will you be trying to cover multiple capabilities with each player/character? Will there be heavy need for decking? For infiltration?

[Kyoto Kid]

...it is good to sit down with the players prior to chargen to talk about team building. In the past (at least with the players I usually GM for) I have ended up with more mages than mundanes & had to insert NPCs in key roles to fill voids. The makeup of the team should fit the flavour of the campaign. If it is a more tech based (as I usually run) a team that is heavy on magic doesn't work very well. On the other hand, if Magic is the main theme, having more awakened characters is not a bad thing, but be sure you are totally up to speed on the magic system. The same holds true for Deckers/Hackers if the campaign is primarily matrix oriented.

[wargear]

I generally prefer to run for six players. I'm looking at a middle ground. I prefer a technology oriented game, but several of my players prefer the magic side of things.

I generally either make the team decker an NPC or streamline the matrix side of things. I prefer to not take a twenty plus minute aside while the decker does his thing and the rest of the party sits bored.

Infiltration is probably a must.

[dog_xinu]

There should be a good balance. Some magic. Some gun toting fools. some sneaky types. etc


Hacker/TM for helping with data mining/hacking.
Mage/Shaman spell throwing type.
sneaky type.
Face.
Rigger for driver. And drones were good battering rams :D


balance is good. all mages, or all gun bunnies, or whatever is bad.


that is just my jaded and humble opinion...
dog

[will_rj]

[Dog]

It'd really depend on your campaign. But based on what you've said so far, maybe try this:

1 adept with ninja-type skills and a good knowledge of all things magical
1 sammie with stupid reflexes and a focus on small, concealed weapons, make him the driver for good measure
1 street shaman of a trickster totem with a wide network of street contacts
1 techie/electronics guy who doubles as a drone rigger
1 face with connections in the matrix and a "buddy" who's a decker
1 face with a military/espionage background for acquiring fancy gear and using the heavy stuff when necessary

That looks to me like a well rounded, six member group leaning towards stealth over heavy-duty stuff.

[wargear]

Nice looking team there, Dog. Thanks. I think I'll go with that. (or something very much like it).

[Kagetenshi]

Minimum team, IMO:

Primary archetypes:

Full Mage
Decker
Rigger (not for driver. Use them as a driver too, but the drones are the important part.)

Required secondary roles (anything necessary, but that can be filled by one of the above characters):

Electronics/infiltration
Face
Combat expert (guy who kills things quickly)
Anti-Spirit warrior (person with high Willpower, Charisma, and an extendable staff)

~J

[imperialus]

assuming a team of 5 this is what I would recommend

combat types x2 these should change based on the campaign, from gun bunnies to covert ops types.

Spellslinger

Hacker

Face

It is possible and probably a good idea to cross train and try to cover each others specialties as well, especially if the group is smaller. My own character is a face/mage.

I've found riggers to be nice but not essential. So long as the group has someone with a decent vehical and a few points in the appropriate skill they can get by. I've rarely seen the wisdom in spending rediculous amounts of cash tricking out a winnabego of death or somesuch with hardpoints, tweaked sensors, ECM suites and other such gee-gaws since as soon as a vehical gets spotted taking part in a crime it's really just so much scrap metal. Far better to have a cheep commonly seen van or 4 door sedan that you can torch after the run without it cutting too deep into your profit margin.

At a minimum (team of 3) I'd break it down this way.

Sam or Adept specializing in covert ops (a team this small can't afford firefights)

Hacker with the ability deal with non matrix electronic security as well (avoid a technomancer they are too specialized)

Spellslinger/Face. Frontman for the team, focus on illusion/manipulation spells to help get the team in and out without being noticed by security measures with a pulse. Spirits can help with legwork and run interferance if the run goes bad.

[Kagetenshi]

You seriously overestimate the problems Riggers have, plus you totally ignored their best points (namely surveillance with drones that have godlike sensors, etc).

So long as you use an externally-common vehicle type, it's pretty easy to make even detailed pictures of the outside of the vehicle totally useless. They can't pull over every van on the road.

~J

[imperialus]

I'll agree that drones can definatly be handy but the mage can do double duty on the recon front using spirits. While spirits have thier own baggage it's no more crippleing than a drones and they can access a lot of places that drones can't. Not only that but they are pretty darn handy in a scrap too.

Idealy a team should have a rigger but they tend to be a very specialized character archtype with limited use which is why I tend to give them lower priority than other archtypes. Not only that but drones can get pricy, even the cheep ones start to tear at the budget if they get wasted too often.

In all honesty it probably comes down to how an individual group plays to determine if they are going to get good milage out of a rigger. If the DM likes throwing lots of astraly protected sites at a team then a riggers value increases exponentially. OTOH teams that rely more on overcoming physical obsticals than magic becomes more valuable.

[eidolon]

[Kalvan]

My group was arranged this way:

1 gunbunny

1 sneaking or melee specialist

one or two full magic users (usually from different traditions)

1 decker (Now comlinker)

1 rigger

note that cross-trained charecters-such as a rigger who doubled as a gunbunny, or a spellslinger who also did melee and/or sneaking were particularly welcome, just so long as thay didn't pull more than their weight, so to speak.

[Edward]

You shouldn’t worry about exact character archetypes. You need to fill several key roles.

Combat (ranged) (sammy, combat decker, drone rigger, gun/thrown adept)
Magic (mage/shaman)
Matrix (decker/otaku)
Transport (rigger or just own some smart vans that take voice orders from users)
Information gathering (face, decker, otaku)

Everybody should be able to defend themselves in hand to hand (or be able to do there job without a physical presence).

Do note that a full magician with decking skills and the right gear can have all that.

[eidolon]

[Ryu]

My group(SR4) consists of:

Hacker/Rigger
Adept (close combat)
Adept (athletics)
Samurai (non-twinked variety)
Mundane (thief that will only aquire cyberware ingame. so far none present)
Shaman, part-time member (Wolf)

You need a way to bypass security. Therefore at least one technically gifted char is required.

The capability of information gathering is best achieved by having a wide variety of char backgrounds, not by a high charisma and social skills. No face needed unless all characters take charisma as a "dump attribute" and forego investment in connections. None of those in my campaign anyway...

All PCs should know some form of combat. It takes up much real-time and bored players don´t speed that part up.

Spellcasting does not have to be covered. Low-level elementals can be beaten by mundanes. No need for mages in my campaign, astral security is rare. If your campaign is magic-heavy, two full mages are better than one. Been there, done that.

[Edward]

Not such ridicules amounts of karma, skill wires for all non magic skills helps, hacking gear is cheep, you don’t really need all the programs and they are not hard to steel.

Spell casting may not be necessary but without it you can never get the high end runs (high security facilities always have astral security) and with magic any run against a target with no astral security is a cake walk.

Edward

[Wounded Ronin]

NO MORE THAN ONE SNIPER!!!!

See, for a small team of 3-10 people or so, you really, really don't need more than one sniper. Yet as a GM I've seen teams of 5 people sometimes have like 2 or 3 snipers. The problem is that everyone is enamored of sniper mystique and wants to be one whether it makes sense or not.

The flip side of this is that I rarely see players go for grenades, LAWs, and mortars, even though any team could use a good grenadier. In terms of rules grenade spam is a decent tactic, too. I think every team should consider adding a grenadier.

[Edward]

I have seen a couple of grenadiers in games, although they used the term demolition expert and everybody else used the term insane idiot with far too much high explosive. Grenades don’t do subtle well.

OTOH we expect most of the party to own 2-10 grenades (usually with a grenade link launcher, possibly the Aries Alfa) and have the skill not to kill themselves or there allies with them. Sometimes subtle isn’t working and you just need to blow things up

The interesting thing is that snipers become more useful when you have several of them. For one thing you can cover multiple building entries or travel routs. Of cause the sniper covering the front door when the mark leaves buy the back has absolutely nothing to do.

[Ryu]

No dedicated sniper at all, please! Owning a high powered rifle does not a sniper make.

Our athletics adept prefers thrown weapons and got Neurostun grenades in addition to her throwing knifes. This is also the character that will handle sniper duty if needed (wall running + free fall = fast deployment).

[Butterblume]

[toturi]

Several things that a good team needs to have:

Combat - May be differentiated by Physical/Astral and by Range

Information - May differentiated by method: Physical(Social Skills and Contacts or by Perception), Magic(Astral Projection, Detection spells and Divination), Matrix(Matrix contacts and Data Search) and by outcome: Gain information or Deny it

Transportation

For example, a street samurai can fulfill the Physical - Close Combat, Short to Medium Range. A rigger can fulfill the Transportation and Long Range Combat roles(via his drones). A mage can fulfill the Astral Combat Short to Medium Range while an Adept can fulfil the Astral Close Combat role. A stealth Adept can Deny Information and gather info Physically scouting.

[Kagetenshi]

A Rigger can also fulfill the Perception-based Physical Information role. Drones ain't just for combat.

Wounded Ronin: I counter with NEVER ONLY ONE SNIPER.

If you're going to have one, have a second. You need a spotter. Plus, knowing there's someone nearby while you lie totally still under a blanket for fourteen hours waiting for your shot is a big help, mentally.

~J

[Ryu]

How many of your runs involve sniping? Most runs involving planned use of force stress speed, not patience. Thats why I said that the ability of fast deployment is important for a shadow-sniper.