 limiting/gimping astral recon?, how to leave legwork for mundanes |
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 Oct 20 2006, 02:21 PM
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#26
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760  |
I still stand by my original statement. The paragraph starts out with "Abstract information is more difficult to percieve there. Written information blah blah bla, but you can't read it to see that it's a love letter. Speech and other sounds are as easy to hear from the astral plane as they are in the physical world."
The subject of the paragraph is an astral mage sensing the physical world. Hence, we can infer the speech and sounds are on the physical and the mage is on the astral, and said sounds can be heard. Also worth noting, every sense is mentioned and explained fully if it is anything other than normal. Taste and smell are listed as non-functional, touch is listed as only interacting with other astral things, sight is described in much more detail. All the exceptions to normal behavior are listed out carefully. Hearing is only listed as "as easy to hear", which would seem to imply there is nothing different about astral hearing compared to normal hearing, otherwise it would have been grouped with touch above. |
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Oct 20 2006, 02:24 PM
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#27
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, in SR4, Ryu is correct. In SR4, physical senses have no meaning to perceiving things in astral space. Sound is as meaningless as text. Emotional impact is what carries through and can be sensed by someone who is in astral space. So while you can't hear the words someone is saying to someone else in physical space, you may be able to get an impression of the conversation's intent.
In SR3, however, none of the above necessarily applies. I know things were a bit fuzzier in previous editions. |
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Oct 20 2006, 02:30 PM
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#28
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
They were. I don't think this is one such case, however. (And the fuzzy topics have likely just shifted from one thing to another. I doubt any game will ever get away from having its own quirks and misinterpretations.)
This is also an excellent point. |
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Oct 20 2006, 06:34 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
strain III
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Oct 20 2006, 06:39 PM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Strain II.
~J |
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Oct 20 2006, 08:28 PM
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#31
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
SR4 was the best I could do, and thankfully the answer was not "bow to the mage".
When I next see my girlfriend I´ll check the SR3 magic books she´s hogging since she wanted to do her own magic tradition. We always played it as "emotion yes, clear information no", but that might have been a house rule. SR2 quite is quite explicit in the way of SR4 (general "astral space"-chapter again). |
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Oct 20 2006, 09:46 PM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Yes, horrific spirits that could tear you apart at will but can't materialize for some reason are probably the best deterants to astral recon. If your astral space is empty then recon will be easy. If there is a Force 35 Free Loa on every street corner people will think twice about percieving or projecting. Of course, they don't have to be that powerful. The scariest thing on the astral plane is the Watcher Attack Pack. Sure, they're weak, but they're easy to summon and you can't beat their Friends in Melee bonuses. While they're rolling astral combat at TN2 and your rolling astral combat a TN8 and this is happening 4 times per pass you're pretty much screwed.
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Oct 20 2006, 10:58 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Slamm-O, what sort of information are the astrally reconning magicians getting? Can you give us an example?
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Oct 21 2006, 01:29 AM
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#34
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Calm down hyzmarca, calm down. Just a few enterprising buddies looking for ways to limit astral recon. If you need some soothing thoughts, remember that askenning a target will still give you information no mundane will ever get so easy.
Remember also that not all buildings actually have astral security? Why should they if eavesdropping is not so easy? Better now? (Just kidding, no offence intended) |
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Oct 21 2006, 03:42 AM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
Why not have astral security everywhere? In my mind astral security is like matrix security if your company doesn't have any you've put yourself at a serious disadvantage. Not everyone is going to have top of the line security, but wards at minimum.
One of the most memorarable astral scouting missions I was invovled in was the time I was scoping out a warehouse which strange "people" were coming in and out of, while we were looking for a missing person who was last seem in the nieghborhood. Went through a wall and found myself in the middle of an antspirit hive :eek: Not advocating stuff like that all the time just every once in a while throw an "oh shit" at them. |
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Oct 21 2006, 10:26 AM
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#36
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Astral security does achive nothing if you are not in danger of astral attack. Espionage is the greatest issue here, and you´ll not get far with that in the times of virtual offices (for matrix clerks).
Most engineers will not leave VR on a normal work day. The paperless office will be real. You just need to protect meeting rooms and exec divisions. And the execs themselves of course. |
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Oct 21 2006, 06:06 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I felt I did fully take the surrounding context into consideration. Yes I fully understand that the discussion is about an astrally projective mage attempting to sense information in the physical plane.
I did note that. When reading the paragraph, in context, you must attach When in the astral plane to the beginning of the above sentence, because that is the context of the paragraph. The word "from" is referring to speach and sounds from the astral plane, and stating that an astrally projecting mage can hear speach and sounds originating in the astral plane as easily as if they were in the physical world and hearing speach and sounds originating from there. (It is making a comparison for illustrative purposes.) This is both implicit due to the context of the paragraph, and explicit in conjuction with the statement regarding: 1) The physical things that occur in the physical world are intangible to the astral form. Because sound on the physical plane is physical thing, it cannot reach the astral form of a mage because that sound is intangible and therefore incapable of impact on the astral form (which doesn't really have ears anyway). Physical plane sounds literally have no representation on the astral plane. It is crystal clear as far as I am concerned. I do fully respect your interpretation.
I agree, astral recon is of only so much value. It is not a panacea for solving scouting needs. ---------------------------------------- If you look at Grimoire II, it explicitly states that music can only be understood as emotions, but general speech can be understood. SR3 seems to explicitly alter it, and MitS doesn't cover it (at least I didn't see it). I don't have SR4, but from the above post, it appears to be different than both SR2 and SR3, and that hardly surprises me. |
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Oct 22 2006, 04:28 AM
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#38
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
The fact that you have to attach non-existent text, which you feel should be implied, to the sentence in order to arrive at your conclusion is precisely where I see your logic as faulty. That non-existent text is what leads you to
which is not correct. The context is quite clear, again, in that it is explaining how things on the physical plane are perceived by an astrally projecting magician on the astral plane. There is nothing at all to support that any of the sensory input being explained is originating on the astral plane. I'm sorry if this seems like a beating of the proverbial dead horse. However, you cannot claim that the text supports your conclusion when you concurrently claim that it is necessary to add to said text in order to reach that conclusion. Your reasoning is fine, if one is already operating on the assumption that the text is incorrect, as you seem to be, being that you're supporting your interpretation by drawing from earlier editions. However, when drawing only from the SR3 explanation, your reasoning doesn't hold up. No hard feelings, run it how you like, it isn't my game, etc. etc. and all disclaimers necessary, of course. |
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Oct 22 2006, 05:16 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
If you choose to disregard a clear and concise statement in the rules section in question, it is possible to view it that way. I do not wish to ignore explicit statements in the rules, and because of that, view my conclusion as entirely reasonable, and logical.
I believe it is, because it can't be talking about an astral form hearing sounds from the physical plane because the rules explicitly state that this is not possible just a short distance further up the page. I choose not to disregard the explicit statement in the rules. Physical things are intangible to your astral form [...]. Sound is a physical thing, this cannot be escaped. The rules clearly state that they are intangible to the astral form. This is an explicit statement that sounds cannot be heard. The implicit meaning of the last sentence under the Astral Senses section" follows from the explicit. In any event, the meaning of the word "from" does not change regardless of the implicit meaning of the so-called non-existent text (that I was using an illustrative example). I never really meant that there should be additional text there, I was just spelling out the obvious meaning based on the full and combined context of the entire rules discussion including the explicit statement that sounds cannot be heard. After an explicit statement is made that sounds cannot be heard, any following statements may not implicitly discuss (and are not discussing) the occurrence of a rules-banned situation.
Except for the explicit statement that sounds cannot be heard two paragraphs up the page.
Again, I was spelling things out. The rules expressly state that sounds cannot be heard.
No, I am operating under the assumption that the text is correct. Physical things are intangible to your astral form [...]. Sound is a physical thing, this cannot be escaped. The rules clearly state that they are intangible to the astral form.
I did no such thing. I mentioned rules on this subject in other game editions, I did not use them as support. If anything, I was illustrating that all the editions appeared different, that this did not surprise me, and nothing else. If I was using the SR2 rules cite as support (and I wasn't), then you must consider that it only supported your position (and not mine). As for the SR4 rule, I was only discussing it in the most indirect fashion, never having seen it myself. |
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Oct 22 2006, 10:45 PM
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#40
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think you'll find that the statement you are quoting refers to the sense of touch. Physical things are intangible, meaning that your Astral Form can pass through walls. It is not referring to sound, which cannot be touched in the physical sense in the real world, or in the Astral.
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Oct 22 2006, 10:50 PM
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#41
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
So is light but you can still "see" physical things from the astral plane because every physical object has an "astral shadow." You can detect movement for the same reason. Now, if you can detect the movement of a man walking on the physical plane by "looking" at his astral shadow then why can't you detect the movement of air molecules by "hearing" their astral shadows. Remember, that "sight" and "sound" on the astral plane are not physical senses. THey are psychic in nature. The psychic detection of astral shadows in a way that seems to mimic visual perception does not preclude the psychic detection of astral shadows in a way that seems to mimic auditory perception., |
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Oct 22 2006, 11:05 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
This thread has a lot of different facts and interpretations so I feel it needs an executive summary.
The summary should be entitled HOW DO SCREW OVER PLAYERS and it should just be a bullet listing of the most un-favorable interpretations of the rules listed on this thread so that an aspiring GM can get the most bang for the buck in stomping the local mage into the ground. So far, I have: *all data collected in the astral is emotional rather than practical ("the building feels cold and unwelcoming...it probably has security, or maybe just a grumpy receptionst...you feel that the Age of Aquarias has been offended") *If the players complain that there are Force 35 Lovecraftian horrors on every block, pelt them instead with packs of watcher spirits *FAB is fab *Every corporation wards their buildings since not doing so would be absurd |
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Oct 22 2006, 11:07 PM
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#43
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Two totally different things. If you turn out the physical lights, do the physical things become unseen in the astral? ~J |
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Oct 22 2006, 11:31 PM
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#44
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
And true to tradition, the executive summary is basically right but missing significant details...
I suggest reading the SR3 rules with consideration of the clear statements of both SR2 and SR4. Discussion of whats physical and whats not will be fruitless due to the undefined status of mana. |
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Oct 23 2006, 02:51 AM
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#45
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
And here is where you have to look at the intended meaning, and realize that the section's writer was obviously not using the word "physical" to mean "all things to which physical law applies".
Hits it on the head quite nicely. The fact that you're being too literal, and transposing sections of the text back and forth the support your desired conclusion, again, does nothing to help your case. Factor in the very first statement of the entire section
and your interpretation slips even further. Are you going to argue that the writer/designer intended that to mean "normal but only operating on the astral plane", again adding text required to support your reading?
It does no such thing. There is nothing in the text that refers to sound until the statement that states explicitly that you can hear sound from the physical on the astral plane.
No. Actually, they don't. They state quite the opposite. But continue believing what you wish. |
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Oct 23 2006, 03:30 AM
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#46
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
They are not different at all. Astral "light" is the auras of living beings. The auras of living beings bounce off of the astral shadows of inanimate objects, proucing psychic illumination. Why would it be difficult to assume that vibrating astral shadows would also cause auras to vibrate, reproducing sounds. |
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Oct 23 2006, 04:28 AM
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#47
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
They are entirely, completely, and utterly different. You say it yourself.
And physical light is not. End of story, really.
It's not difficult at all to assume that. The difficult part is assuming that that makes them at all alike. If you turn on a lightbulb, it doesn't glow in the astral because it isn't any more alive. If you have a hundred people in a room with no light but their own blackbody radiation and the walls at absolute zero, the people are still just as visible on the astral as if they were seconds shy of being incinerated from the light hitting them—no more, no less. The presence of an astral version of light does not imply (and indeed, is expressly stated not to be) the perception of physical light on the astral plane. ~J |
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Oct 23 2006, 04:40 AM
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#48
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Which is still not to say that sounds from the physical cannot be heard while Astrally Projecting. Although I do know that you are not arguing that point, Kage. ;) |
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Oct 23 2006, 06:36 AM
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#49
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The assumption that if physical matter interacts with astral light then physical matter interacts with astral light isn't that far of a leap at all. In this case, "sound" and "sight" are simply two different ways for physical matter to interact with the psychic glow from living auras, one by direct reflection and the other by inducing vibration.
The lightbulb analogy is quite meaningless since physical light can be dismissed as beingan electromagnetic wave and/or a massles particle while sound iscaused by massive molecules and it has already been established that massive molecules interact with astral light. |
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