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> Mundane's and spell resistance..., ...Above and beyond positive qualities.
Steak and Spirit...
post Oct 18 2006, 08:50 PM
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I really like how Magic Resistance is a quality that can be taken exclusively by mundane character's. I've always had a problem with mundane's relying on awakened characters to provide them with counterspelling dice.

So much so, infact, that I was immensely pleased when we house-ruled a 'Magic Resistance' complimentary knowledge skill (TN: 4, every 2 successes achieve 1 success on a spell resistance test) into Shadowrun 3rd edition.

But I've often wondered if it would be that far fetched to increase the amount of immunity to magic they're capable of.

One thing that has come up for discussion involves something that in practice works very similiar to a foci, is bondable by Mundanes, and provides dice to spell resistance tests. Another option is something similiar to injected nanites that circulate through a mundane's bloodstream, bonding with their aura, and likewise, increasing spell resistance dice.

Thoughts?
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Mal-2
post Oct 18 2006, 08:56 PM
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Just allow the mundanes to learn the Counterspelling skill. I probably wouldn't allow mundanes to provide counterspelling for anyone but themselves, though.
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Steak and Spirit...
post Oct 18 2006, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (Mal-2)
Just allow the mundanes to learn the Counterspelling skill. I probably wouldn't allow mundanes to provide counterspelling for anyone but themselves, though.

But that doesn't cost money, nor address the issue of there being any risk of ever losing that counterspelling ability.

And I would like to clarify, both of these proposals in question will affect the recipient exclusively, and will not be extendable to other individuals in any way, shape, or form.
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Ancient History
post Oct 18 2006, 09:01 PM
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You could go for a quickened spell barrier tattoo or something.
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Steak and Spirit...
post Oct 18 2006, 09:10 PM
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That's another alternative, yeah. Though, I'm not sure how practical it would be, given that quickened tattoo magic is, more or less, a brute-force ward-smasher.
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fistandantilus4....
post Oct 18 2006, 09:18 PM
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Yeah, but at least you don't have to worry about grounding any more
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WhiskeyMac
post Oct 19 2006, 01:01 AM
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I think the point he is trying to get is a non-magical way for mundanes to resist magic besides the Magic Resistance quality. I think letting them learn counterspelling or your magic resistance knowledge skill would probably be a good idea. I think it would be cool if a mundane had one of those "It's all in my head. If I don't believe it will hurt me, it won't" mentalities and so he/she got a few extra dice. Psychosomatic magical defense or something. Had a traumatic experience with magic early in his/her life and so that caused an automatic defense to pop up, deadening magic or something. That sounds kinda neat.
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Fortune
post Oct 19 2006, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Oct 19 2006, 11:01 AM)
I think it would be cool if a mundane had one of those "It's all in my head. If I don't believe it will hurt me, it won't" mentalities and so he/she got a few extra dice. Psychosomatic magical defense or something. Had a traumatic experience with magic early in his/her life and so that caused an automatic defense to pop up, deadening magic or something. That sounds kinda neat.

Which is a really good 'in-game' way of describing the already existing Magic Resistance Quality. I don't see the need for too much more in the way of Mundane magic defences (not too many Mages out there with more that 4 in Counterspelling at chargen).
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Eleazar
post Oct 19 2006, 01:56 AM
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I don't think the proposal of WhiskeyMac fits in too well with how magic works. Just because someone doesn't believe magic is going to hurt them doesn't mean anything. The mana is still going to be gathered by the magician at the same force and then transformed into energy(a spell) that will affect the target. In order for this to work the mundane would actually have to be able to affect the flow of mana or the energy being direced towards them. This requires abilities a mundane just does not have. Magic Resistance seems to be more like an innate ability certain people have and others don't. A fair example in my opinion would be in DnD where the Drow have spell resistance. I look at Magic Resistance sort of like the Spell/Spirit knack quality.

The description WhiskeyMac gave sounds like just another way to describe Magic Resistance from a Psionic's point of view. Really there is nothing stopping you right now from doing this with the Magic Resistance quality, just use Psionic flavoring.

Also note that Magic Resistance counts against the player as well. The Magic Resistance is roled even when the player is being healed or receiving beneficial magic. Also, it is impossible for the player to be the voluntary subject of any spell. So any spells requiring the player be a voluntary subject automatically fail.
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Fortune
post Oct 19 2006, 02:04 AM
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QUOTE (Eleazar @ Oct 19 2006, 11:56 AM)
The description WhiskeyMac gave sounds like just another way to describe Magic Resistance from a Psionic's point of view. Really there is nothing stopping you right now from doing this with the Magic Resistance quality, just use Psionic flavoring.

Pretty much what I meant, but for Mundanes, not Psionics (who can't get Magic Resistance). Being Mundane, there's no reason why someone would know exactly why Magic doesn't work on him, so it's perfectly viable to have a character develop this kind of outlook.
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ShadowDragon
post Oct 19 2006, 05:34 AM
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Knowledge skills shouldn't be so involved with game mechanics - they're more for flavor. A knowledge skill that gives spell resistance seems like a cheap no brainer-must have for every character. If anything, it should be an active skill, though I think allowing mundanes to learn counterspelling is too good. Maybe a spell resistance active skill that doesn't work as well as counterspelling would be more appropriate.

Really, I'm fine with the rules as they are. Magic isn't any more deadly than a burst from an automatic weapon. I don't see a need to nerf it.
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kzt
post Oct 19 2006, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
Really, I'm fine with the rules as they are. Magic isn't any more deadly than a burst from an automatic weapon. I don't see a need to nerf it.

The fact that you can't detect who is attacking you. or spot them prior to you taking damage is a pretty major advantage of mana spells over automatic weapons.
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Fortune
post Oct 19 2006, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 19 2006, 03:54 PM)
The fact that you can't detect who is attacking you. or spot them prior to you taking damage is a pretty major advantage of mana spells over automatic weapons.

I believe there are specific rules for detecting spellcasting (just like there are rules for concealment to detect that submachinegun under the sammy's jacket before he shoots you with it), and IIRC, they are pretty lenient in favor of the person doing the looking.
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Garrowolf
post Oct 19 2006, 06:48 AM
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You could take it from another direction. There is a phenomina for psychics that I can't quite remember the name for but it is not only a resistance to psychic energies but they actively scramble it around them. They effectively create a background count around them all the time.
You could take it one of two directions: If the could control it at all - ie push it at someone it would be worth a good deal, or if it was not only strong but uncontrolable then it could even be a disadvantage. It could mess up your own group as well.
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Fortune
post Oct 19 2006, 06:50 AM
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Damn! It's beginning to sound a lot like the Dreaded Negamage™. :eek:
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Garrowolf
post Oct 19 2006, 06:52 AM
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BTW I also agree that you shouldn't have a knowledge skill that powerfull. Knowledge skills are just for knowledge. If you are actively doing something then it is more of an active skill.
I could see it only effecting mental spells and illusions and maybe stun spells, but nothing with physical trait to the spell. Only things that efect the mind.
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Edward
post Oct 19 2006, 09:23 AM
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Frankly I am shocked buy that magic resistance knowledge skill.

Under SR4 that skill would be more effective at defending against powerful spells than the same number of spell defence dice.

6 dice of spell defence knowledge target 4 average 3 successes = 1.5 on spell defence
6 dice of spell defence target spell force (6) average 1 successes

Personally I don’t have the problem that you need magic to defend against magic. And even if you do the magic resistance quality (described in myriad different ways) provides plenty. Unless you like the idea of being able to create mundanes that are better at resisting magic than any magician.

Edward
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Garrowolf
post Oct 19 2006, 09:29 AM
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Maybe you could declare cold iron as magic resistant.
It's not like there is much around so most people wouldn't have noticed.
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Steak and Spirit...
post Oct 19 2006, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE
Frankly I am shocked buy that magic resistance knowledge skill.

Under SR4 that skill would be more effective at defending against powerful spells than the same number of spell defence dice.


In shadowrun 3rd edition, knowledge skills composed complimentary skills. And the mechanics of the roll was complimentary to a spell resistance test. Therefore, as it was inacted, a knowledge skill was more than appropriate.

But that is neither here, nor there.

QUOTE
Personally I don’t have the problem that you need magic to defend against magic. And even if you do the magic resistance quality (described in myriad different ways) provides plenty. Unless you like the idea of being able to create mundanes that are better at resisting magic than any magician.


The Magic Resistance Quality is certainly a nice start, I can't disagree with you there. However, I assure you that by the very nature of Awakened character's having access to all things that Mundanes do, no matter what the boost is, it will not be one that creates a Mundane that is better at resisting magic than a magician.

At the best, you will create a Mundane who can more successfully resist magic than they would currently be able to.

Afterall, Awakened Character's have never had any shortage of arenas to draw addition dice to cast spells from. From Foci, to Spirits, it's all there, and it always, always, ALWAYS dwarfs a Mundane's spell defense pool, often times even when that Mundane is augmented with spell defense dice from a friendly Mage.

So.

Option #1 - Mundane Bondable Counterspelling Foci - Working identically to any other foci, with the exception that they may also be bonded by Mundanes, this type of Foci provides dice exclusively for spell resistance tests. And really, it doesn't alter the mechanics of the game - Mundanes are already capable of resisting spells in their own means, they are just not able to manipulate magic outside of resistance. Therefore, this Foci specifically capitalizes on that ability. Each force point adds 1 dice to spell resistance tests, may be activated and deactivated like other foci, etc.

Option #2 - Pre-emptively released without Nanotech support from Augmentation, the nanite injected form of Magic Resistance operates in principle similarly to other forms of nanite technology. A nanite hive releases these 'anti-magic' nanites which go about doing whatever it is that nanites do. Fluff/flavour text will essentially amount to the nanites maintaining ideal chemical levels inside of a (meta)human host, proven to repell the effect of 'Magic' - Probably invented by some of those meddling Hermetics and their scientiffic approach to magic, to boot.

Of course, like ALL things available to Mundanes, this technology is also available to awakened characters. Which is no surprise, as that seems to be the number one rule of Shadowrun.
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Ryu
post Oct 19 2006, 10:29 AM
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Option #3: By performing long meditation rituals, mundanes can "harden" their aura against magical energies. In effect, you are allowed to buy magic resistance according to standart rules. This is now a regular part of your game world, as execs will certainly do this.


Hmm, might even work. IŽll talk to my group.
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cybertrucker
post Oct 19 2006, 12:16 PM
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Its nice to see magic is so feared, as it should be of coarse MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
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Ancient History
post Oct 19 2006, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (Ryu)
Option #3: By performing long meditation rituals, mundanes can "harden" their aura against magical energies. In effect, you are allowed to buy magic resistance according to standart rules. This is now a regular part of your game world, as execs will certainly do this.


Hmm, might even work. IŽll talk to my group.

Does anyone else see the irony in people wanting to use practices normally associated with magic to defeat magic because they don't want to use magic to do so?
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Steak and Spirit...
post Oct 19 2006, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE
Does anyone else see the irony in people wanting to use practices normally associated with magic to defeat magic because they don't want to use magic to do so?


For clarification, these are designed as additional defensive measures against magic for characters who do not have access to the manipulation of magic, themselves.

I'm sure that wanting to use magic to defend against magic is not so much the issue, as being able to use magic, to defend against magic.
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blakkie
post Oct 19 2006, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Steak and Spirits @ Oct 18 2006, 02:50 PM)
But I've often wondered if it would be that far fetched to increase the amount of immunity to magic they're capable of.

Magic Resistance can be bought and raised during play, with GM approval. If you really feel the need you can just open up the top end by removing the rating limit, although the flat cost of 10 karma per point might lead to some wacky things if you've got the type of player that'll do wacky things. ;) Also, Spell/Spirit Knack allows you to learn Counterspelling.

Unfortunately Knack suffers from that obvious sideeffect that any Essense loss would, AFAIK, cause you to loose the ability to use the Skill. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's bad. *shrug*
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Fortune
post Oct 19 2006, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (Steak and Spirits)
Option #1 - Mundane Bondable Counterspelling Foci ... And really, it doesn't alter the mechanics of the game

Well technically it does, as Mundanes cannot bond themselves to Foci in any way in Sixth World canon (as of yet). This is one of the basic tenets of the Shadowrun Magic system, and has been since the game's inception. Dunkenstein even has a bequest laid out for anyone who comes up with this kind of thing ... and the DIMR ain't had any takers yet.
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