 Mundane's and spell resistance..., ...Above and beyond positive qualities. |
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 Oct 19 2006, 02:34 PM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
I had a few comments, then realized this was an SR3 thread, despite being in the SR4 forum.
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Oct 19 2006, 02:54 PM
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#27
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Normaly associated with magic != magic. And some of my characters would prefer to be able to defend themselfs rather than being defended by someone else. I was just giving an ingame method of developing the positive quality. The main advantage of this option is the fact that it does not require to change or add any rules. |
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Oct 19 2006, 02:57 PM
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#28
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...except that unlike the burst from a weapon, you only receive your Willpower or Body Attribute (depending on the spell effect description) to shake it down with no other adds to the dice pool. It is not inconceivable to have to shake down 10 hits (believe me it's happened several times to my characters). With an average WP of 3 (which most Mundane characters end up with) that is one hit of soak on the average, leaving you to take the other nine. If you glitch, time to make up another character. With firearms, you at least get to add your armour/orthoskin/natural armour to the soak roll. I have been looking for some way to set a threshold based on the old Attribute TN modifiers from previous editions. |
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Oct 19 2006, 03:02 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
You are incorrect, sir. It is a SR4 thread, in an SR4 forum, that references an SR3 ruling. If that was not explicitly implied by the fact that it was in this forum, then I will see about attaching a large, blinking sign on future posts.
Fair enough. But I think we can both agree that Mundanes roll dice for spell resistance. There is a precedent set for Mundane's being able to do something to better defend against spells. These suggestions expound on that something. |
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Oct 19 2006, 03:20 PM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And the expansion is already available in canon. The Magic Resistance Quality explicitly cannot be taken by Awakened characters, and provides Mundanes with a perfectly viable, and even improvable option. I just don't see the need for anything more, and in my opinion, any more would start to tip the balance the other way.
As an aside, I don't actually mind your Nanites ... as long as [a] they don't stack with the Magic resistance Quality, and [b] they work in a similar fashion to that Quality in regards to beneficial Spells. :) |
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Oct 19 2006, 03:39 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Not to mention that a mundane can attack without being seen just as easily. Using a long range gun or sniper rifle will allow this. Also, a good covert ops specialist, a la Sam Fisher, can come up to anyone unawares and kill them before they even know what has gone on. I am sure if you told our current special forces that it is impossible for them to kill someone undetected they would think you were joking. In SR4 this would be even more so the case with things like chameleon suits, electronics, cybernetics, and other means to aid the user in not being spotted altogether or attacking the enemy from their blind side. |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:29 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Yes. I'm fairly partial to the nanites myself. But no, I wasn't planning on limiting them functioning mutually exclusively to Spell Resistance. I was, however, considering them being mutually exclusive to counter-spelling dice offered by friendly magicians, so that only the highest dice total would apply. But then again. I was also considering just not. Because my sympathy for Mages is close to non-existant, and I haven't seen a sufficient arguement that supports it being an unbalancing game concept on it's own. |
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Oct 20 2006, 09:13 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
Really, you play like that? I always assumed that the target knows when and which person casts a spell on them. Spells generally don't have the flashy videogame look, so anyone watching would have no way of knowing, but anyone affected (whether resisted or not) by the spell knows. Realistically how else can it work during combat with the way initiative works? |
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Oct 20 2006, 09:29 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
Wow you must have a sadistic DM if your characters are regularly on the receiving end of force 10 combat spells. You do realize that force limits the number of hits you can get right? My group's mage has magic 6, spellcasting 5, and a force 2 power focus, which is relatively optimized (I know you can squeeze in more, but not much more). So he gets an average of about 4 hits when casting a spell. Weaker opponents are cannon fodder to him, but tougher enemies don't have much trouble shaking off his spells completely with a little edge. A tougher mage that my PCs could run against have around 5 magic and 4 spellcasting. Maybe your GM is forgetting that 3 is the average stat and 3 is professional skill. With firearms, if you want to compare them to a force 10 spell, compare it to two bursts from an assault rifle using ExEx ammo. |
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Oct 20 2006, 12:44 PM
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#35
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
As was mentioned several times in other threads, force 10 combat spells are not that hard to do. And a mundane character won´t care if it was force 6 + 4 net successes (10 boxes of damage needing 10 hits to soak is what Kyoto likely wanted to say). The mage can do the later variant without risking need of edge, and the first with edge is a guranteed takedown.
Concerning the comparison to assault rifles with ExEx: Right on track. A good combat character will likely be standing after the fact if he was armed. Between dodgeing and armor, many dice can be brought against that threat. But not so against the spell. |
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Oct 20 2006, 02:56 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Here's the themeatic write up for Depravity. Use and abuse at your own risk.
------------------------------------------------ Depravity - Nanotechnolgoy Depravity is a form of Nano-based psyche therapy, developed to test the hypothesis of several leading individuals in the field of Hermetic based pyschology. Specifically studying the accumulation of Mana Background Counts, and the psychological effects or causes by Metahumans living in areas with significant backgrounds, these Hermetic scientists based 'Depravity' on what was used originally as an alternative to traditional medication for patients diagnosed with a chemical imbalance or defiency. By altering the 'nanopsyche-stabilizer units' into 'destabilizer' units, these Hermetics were able to artificially create the negative requirements for Negative Mana-Background formations inside what would otherwise be normal, average metahumans. While the obviously harmful effects of longterm exposure to this nanotechnology is obvious, the startling discovery that accompanied the synthesis of Depravity is that not only were individuals whose bloodstreams were chemicaly regulated with Depravity able to accelerate the creation of negative Background counts, but the aura of the individuals themselves began to create micro-sized background counts of their own. Often times, subjects who willingly dose themselves with Depravity will use other drugs to compensate for psychological burden it creates. Not surprisingly, this can create the pitiful, downward spiral of addiction and destruction. Game Effects: A character dosed with Depravity begins to effectively develop their own, personal background count effect, reducing the effectiveness of the manipulation of magic on their person. This background count accumulates at a rate of 1 point per hour, up to the effective potency of the nano-destabilizer, and lingers until the nano-therapy is removed from their system, decreasing their background count by 1 point per hour. The character adds a number of dice equal to the rating of Depravity to all spell resistance tests. Additionally, Awakened characters who are dosed with Depravity suffer all effects associated with background counts equal to the rating induced into their aura. Long term Exposure: Gamemaster's are encouraged to creatively create consequences for long term use of Depravity, and the obvious harm that it can inflict on a user/abuser's psycho-state. ------------------------------------------------ Notes: Depravity will be available in multiple ratings. Each rating is a more invasive form of the nano-therapy. The dice that Depravity provides augment all spell resistance rolls, to include automatic resistance to spells that may benefit the subject. Gamemasters are encouraged to create sideeffects appropriate to their campaign, such as penalties to social rolls. |
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Oct 20 2006, 03:11 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Counterspelling Foci
Here's the thematic write up for Counterspelling Foci. Use/abuse are your own risk. ------------------------------------------------ While modern Hermetics argue if the voluntary exchange of energy between a free spirit, and a metahuman is a portion of their lifespan, their good fortune, and actually portions of their internal life energy, one thing is clear: There are quantifiable similiarities between this 'energy', and the 'energy' expended when an awakened individual bonds a foci to their person. Noting that these exchanges between spirits and individuals was not limited exclusively to awakened characters, multiple teams of top-notch Hermetics began expanding on the parallel principles of foci and mundanes. With recent breakthroughts, the counterspelling Foci has been released. While in many ways, a counterspelling Foci appears similiar to a spellcasting Foci, it is unique in that it does not actually require the active manipulation of mana, but rather, harnesses the portion of passive mana manipulation already intrinsic in mundanes: The resistance of magical manipulation. Game Effects: Counterspelling Foci are unique in that they may be bonded by Mundanes as well as awakened characters. When active, they follow all rules of active foci. They provide a number of dice equal to their rating for all spell defense tests. ------------------------------------------------ Note: Foci Addiction/Karma Bonding Cost/Availability/Cost have not been factored yet. |
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Oct 20 2006, 03:58 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
That sort of makes sene, but the rules never says that. If it was supposed to work that way it would state it, right? Like Hero does. You are walking down a street full of people and get hit by a mana bolt. Did it come from the thousands of tinted windows overlooking the street, or maybe a parked or passing car? How about a manhole via a fiber link? Maybe the mage is using invisibility? You can't tell, and you can't detect anything that would warn you in the majority of these cases. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the rules that suggests that you have any idea where it came from or who cast it. A forensic mage may be able to tell something when looking at your corpse, but that won't help you much. Did I miss something, or do the rules say that you can only tell that someone is casting magic when you can see him clearly? Which is sure what p 168 says. |
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Oct 20 2006, 04:01 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
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Oct 20 2006, 04:27 PM
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#40
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...actually force 5 with max allowable successes (which comes to 10 hits) due to the mages having a large dice pools from foci, mentor bonuses & the like. Keep in mind that spell power adds to the successes, so the 4 hits rolled is increased by the spell's power (6) making the total hits 10. This is why I feel magic is so rude against mundanes, since they have at best 3 - 4 dice to shake the damage of a combat spell down (unless they are an orc or troll & the spell is Physical instead of Mana based). And, unless it ihas an Elemental effect, it totally bypasses armour. Meanwhile, the mage not only has his or her worn armour to defend against against your bullets, but can also augment it with spells. And the only equaliser - APDS ammo (which only halves the Armor factor) is impossible to get a hold of at Chargen and bloody difficult to find afterwards. |
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Oct 20 2006, 06:45 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
No...it's still only 5 hits in your first example and 4 hits in your second example. The force doesn't add to the hits. It caps the hits and adds to the power. Check the bottom of page 195 under direct combat spells and the bottom of page 171 under force. And again, what kind of combat monsters are being thrown at you? Do you get a new 45k Y focus every time you geek a mage? Does your GM realize that anything above a 3 or 4 in a skill is uncommon (even more so because the awakened are uncommon)? Mundanes should have a higher edge than the awakened because they don't have to raise an extra stat. Use that when resisting spells with a weak willpower (or just raise your willpower - I'd never have less than 5 willpower in your game...).
ExEx is better ammo than APDS IMO. Or if you really need it, get some stick n shock. A long narrow burst followed by a short narrow burst is plenty to ruin any mage's day. Especially when mages tend to have a body and reaction of 3 or 4. He'd boost those stats or his armor with spells, but he already has increase reflexes running on his sustaining focus and -2 sustaining penalties only weaken his offence. My group's mage tends to see the street doc way more often than the sammy. kzt, Steak and Spirits, Ya learn something new every day :) I'm sure my mage's player will be happy to hear this. |
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Oct 20 2006, 08:23 PM
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#42
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...[smack in the head for semantical error] Sorry you're right, it is Hits (5) + Spell force (5) = Spell DV (10). Still, this is only resisted by raw attribute, unless you have a mage present on your side who is actively counterspelling.
Willpower of 5 really doesn't increase the average hits, though you may get an extra success now & then. That still leaves a big chunk of damage that isn't resisted. Basically what I am getting at is that it is easier for a mundane to shake down damage from mundane weapons than it is from spells.
There was thread regarding Magic Armour AP, it seemed that the consensus was APDS would be better since it halves all armour values, mundane and magical. EXEX only reduces the armour pool by -2. So that mage with an Armour 4 spell on top of an armoured jacket would have a net armour value of only 6 instead of 10. |
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Oct 20 2006, 11:45 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
No problem. But the fact still remains that you shouldn't expect to get hit by spells with 5 hits very often. You'd need 15 dice for an average of 5 hits. That's an elite magic and spellcasting skill, with a 45k focus, combat spell specialization, and no magic armor being sustained (to "easily" resist mundane weapons) or increase reflexes being sustained; that is unless you want to tac on another 20-30k for a sustaining focus. Most veteran spellcasters should have around 4 magic, 4 spellcasting, and maybe combat spell specialization. Spells from these casters should be around 3 hits to resist, which is very doable with decent willpower and edge. A GM has two options: 1. Make every NPC mage the PCs face, an elite combat god and risk the PCs getting a huge payraise if they kill him from his foci. 2. Or put them against appropriate magic encounters where you can expect around 3 hits.
And this is where I disagree. You're taking the extremes of elite spellcasters and pitting them against the extremes of mediocre mundanes. If you're going to compare mundanes to spellcasters, you need to compare the mediocre to the mediocre or the elite to the elite.
APDS is -4 AP. Stick-n-shock is half AP with only an availability of 5; base damage is also capped at 6. EXEX is -2 AP AND +2 damage. An armor 4 spell subtracts 2 dice from spellcasting, further reducing those hits. Or it requires a 40k sustaining focus. An armor jacket requires higher than average body when mages already have to invest so many points in other things. This is exactly the type of unlikely encounter I'm talking about. Most mages are going to have 3 body, 3 reaction, and 6 armor. Against a typical sammy with 4 skill, 4 agility, and a smartlink, the sammy can expect 2 net hits on a short narrow burst. With an Ares Alpha with EXEX ammo and gas vent 3 (5 total RC), the sammy can shoot 2 short bursts per IP without worrying about recoil. That's 6 base damage, +2 from EXEX, +2 from the narrow burst, +2 from net hits for a total of 12 damage the mage has to resist with 6 dice because of the -3 AP (an average of 2 hits to resist damage). So with 2 bursts, the mage is taking 20 physical damage. Up this to your 4 body mage with 12 armor because of the armor jacket and armor spell and the mage is still taking an average of 16 damage! |
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Oct 20 2006, 11:48 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
3rd edition APDS used to halve armor. Just -4 from Ballistic, now. Since EX-EX is +2 DV, -2 AP, it's usually the best choice to as much as perhaps 9 out of 10 times.
Can't agree with you more, in that regard. Which is why I'm throwing these Spell Resistance options for people to use. |
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Oct 21 2006, 01:04 AM
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#45
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I stand corrected on the Ammo. Still running an SR3 campaign & easy to get things mixed up.
None of my SR4 characters has even bothered to think about APDS since it is next to impossible to get anyway so I never really looked it over. As to the total power of incoming spells, both KK and Violet have been hit with 10DV spells, both stun & physical on several occasions. The NPC on each occasion was basically a 400BP character. Maybe the GM was just getting lucky rolls I guess. However let's Hypothesize for a moment: Force 5 spell + spellcasting 5, + Mentor bonus + Rating 2 Focus (Power or Spellcasting), makes a DP of 14 learn spell on Fetish to assist in soaking up drain. Doable as a 400BP character. If overcasting, the DP can exceed 15. |
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Oct 21 2006, 01:09 AM
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#46
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
In most occasions even 3 successes will be sufficient to make whatever damage is tacked on reach the target. An average willpower of 3 against say manabolt 8 can easily do the trick. Sometimes it will not fail.
The main problem is that the target will either face no damage at all, or much damage. With mundane weapons, any result is possible. And there are no incentives for a mage to stay below the powerlevel he can cast without risk of drain. At the same time, the samurai will often bring a smaller gun. |
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Oct 21 2006, 01:40 AM
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#47
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Force 14 quickened custom personal Mana Static with 14 hits and an effective force of 42 for the purpose of dispelling. Only a grade 9 or better initiate will be able to even cast against you and a grade 9 character with the maximum possible magic attribute will be casting as if he had a magic attribute of 1. Bringing down the spell is out of the question.
Clensing and Filtering may help, but Filtering would require between 14 and 28 hits (depending on grade) to negate the background count and and Clensing would require 21 hits to totally remove the background count. Both take complex actions (Clensing would take 14 complex actions) and it would give the mundane time to act and forewarning to the danger. The best part is that all you need is a grade 1 initiate contact with quickening and maxed out magic to cast the mana static spell. |
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Oct 21 2006, 05:12 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
I know you're not serious, but before you give Emo too many ideas: background count can't exceed 12; background count is necessarily an area phenomenon that can't be made personal; area effects can't be attached to persons.
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Oct 21 2006, 11:19 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
That's not true. Detection Spells are a great example of area effects that can be attached to persons. |
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Oct 21 2006, 03:48 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
That's not true. Detection spells affect a person and (some of them) give that person a sense that sucks up information from an area. You'll note that none of them are LOS(A). The sense granted by the personal effect spell is area effect; the spell itself is not. I'd rule that a sustained area spell shows an astral "haze" throughout that area, emanating from the central point where the spell is focused/found for counterspelling purposes. That's not the case with detection spells. |
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