 How would you represent .50 beowulf in Shadowrun?, HOW DO LARGE CARTRIDGE!!???!?!?!??!!! |
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 Oct 19 2006, 03:44 AM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
So, everyone's familiar with .50 beowulf rifles, right?
http://www.50beowulf.com/ http://www.50beowulf.com/PDF/50Beowulf_GB_2002.pdf My understanding is that it's an AR15 style rifle designed to be used as an entry weapon. It's got a big ole .50 cal handgun-style round with the length of a regular 5.56 casing behind it but which is much fatter. I'd surmise that it would be more traumatic to be shot by than a standard 5.56 round because the bullet is bigger and blunter and thus it would damage your tissues more. I'd also surmise that it would have inferior ballistics and that's why it's an entry weapon. I'm not sure how it would stack up against basic 5.56 in terms of penetrating things because even though the bullet isn't pointy it does have a lot more powder behind it. Anyhoo, if you wanted to represent this thing in your SR game how would you go about it? (I realize that answers would vary greatly depending on if someone is thinking of Raygun's system versus vanilla, on what they imagine a "heavy pistol" is, and so on.) |
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Oct 19 2006, 04:08 AM
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#2
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Going from very hazy memory of when this came up a few years back, what I remember was that the major advantage for this thing was it gave you something vaguely similar to a shotguns performance but with better range and accuracy due to aerodynamics. Here's the stats I did for it using Raygun's system back then, got no idea how realistic it is so take with salt. ;)
Beowulf .50 Model: Beowulf .50 "Entry Gun" Calibre: .50 Beowulf Range: Carbine Conceal: 3 Ammo: 7 Mode: SA Damage: 10S Weight: 3.18 kg Availability: - Cost: 1,155 |
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Oct 19 2006, 04:55 AM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Nothing to add to the actual topic, but I just have to ask:
What's with the "HOW DO ________________ ??!!!!!??!?!?!!?" subtitles? Are we trying for the "How do I shot web?" from the infamous screenshot from the Half-Life mod Natural Selection, or is this more of a "How I Mine for Fish?" from VGCats? It's a subtle distinction, but I like to keep my internet memes straight. |
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Oct 19 2006, 05:34 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
HOW DO ________ !?!?!?!??! is actually something I got from bullshido.net, where it's used to make fun of people who think they can learn to grapple, strike, or generally fight over the internet. The original form is HOW DO ARMBAR!!!????!!!!!! If you go to bullshido.net I believe there's a featured article or something entitled HOW DO ARMBAR!!!!???? which is kind of like somethingawful.com's Weekend Web except the focus is on people on the internet asking stupid martial arts questions. |
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Oct 19 2006, 05:50 AM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
So, in short, it's likely independent of the two I cited, and yet another example of parallel meme evolution. Interesting and scary all at the same time.
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Oct 19 2006, 09:39 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I would expect a 400-grain solid at 1800fps to penetrate most level III-A armor at close range, but at some 100 yards it will get stopped. It will penetrate armor worse than 5.56x45mm.
With standard SR3 Damage Codes, 10S seems to fit -- can't make it more lethal than the shotguns, while anything less than that is just a sporting rifle. I'm thinking 10S in Raygun's system as well, since that's what he has .500 S&W (440 grains at 1625fps), .450 Marlin (450 grains at 1830fps) and 12 gauge shotguns pegged at; the rifle armor penetration modifier wouldn't apply. Either way, double uncompensated recoil. |
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Oct 19 2006, 11:43 AM
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#7
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'd say a decent way to handle it would be just calling it a shotgun slug. Stats, range, recoil modifiers, everything but the skill used. Easy and simple way to represent "big, not particularly aerodynamic, projectile that's made for up-close work."
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Oct 20 2006, 01:52 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
Actually, considering the amount of gamers on Bullshido, even in the higher-ups (closet or otherwise, and don't tell me they aren't there WR :D), the vgcats reference being the stem isn't all that far fetched. Or they could have a common root. I doubt Phrost or whoever it was came up with it originally.
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Oct 20 2006, 02:41 AM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
And yet, the VGCats one doesn't contain the word 'do' and the Natural Selection one does. Curiouser still, the Bullshido version seems to express an elimination of self, by leaving out any reference to "I". At any rate, it's unique enough to stand on it's own, even if it is a derivative of one of the earlier memes. |
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Oct 20 2006, 11:57 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 3-March 06 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 8,330 |
According to Wikipedia, the .50 Beowulf cartridge, whilst being similar in size to the .500 S&W cartridge, is not as powerful as the .500 cartridge.
Also, according to the NRA, whilst the .500 S&W and .50 Beowulf cartridge are very good for taking down large game (Bears etc..), the .500 S&W, and therefore I assume the .50 Beowulf, do not travel at high enough velocity to penetrate modern kevlar vests. However, apparently the .50 Beowulf bullet, after 100 yards of travel has the same kinetic energy as a 12 gauge shotgun slug at the muzzle. So god knows what the .500 S&W is like at that range. I'd hazard a guess that, in game terms, that the .50 Beowulf would be on similar terms with whatever the Ruger Super Warhawk fires. |
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Oct 20 2006, 12:36 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
.50 Beowulf from a 16" barrel: 400 grains @ 1800fps = 2878ft-lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle
.500 S&W from a 8-3/8" barrel: 440 grains @ 1625fps = 2580ft-lbs of KE at the muzzle From a barrel of similar length the .500 S&W may slightly outperform the .50 Beowulf, but the .50 Beowulf rifle is more powerful than a .500 S&W revolver. Though I haven't seen systematic testing on it, some experiments and the numbers do provide evidence that most 12G slug loads can be stopped by level III-A -- the most common form of flexible body armor today -- vests. However, most slug loads fire 437-grain deforming (vs. solid flatnose 400gr for the .50 Beowulf) projectiles of a much greater diameter (roughly 0.73" vs 0.5") at velocities in the 1200-1500 fps range. That particular Beowulf load is therefore much better suited to penetrating armor than most shotgun slugs. I can't guarantee that it would penetrate level III-A vests, but I would guess that, at very close range, it usually does. I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I'll leave that Warhawk comment to others... |
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Oct 20 2006, 02:11 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 3-March 06 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 8,330 |
Ah, have i managed to make a veritable faux pas in making a reference to the Ruger Super Warhawk?
In my defence i was making that reference in respect to the standard SR rules, not knowing Raygun's system, though i have seen it in passing. I must also admit that my previous post is entirely based on what i've read on wikipedia which, i will admit, is not always the most accurate of information sources. Unfortunately it is the best i have to go on as, alas, living in Britain has left me woefully undereducated in practical firearms knowledge. A lamentable fact that I am hoping to remedy in the New Year when I intend to join the Territorial Army. |
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Oct 20 2006, 06:08 PM
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#13
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
you could represent it...
or... you could use a 12 gauge with slugs and keep it simple... and more power actually. 12 ga is what, .6- .75? 16-18 would be ~.5 |
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Oct 21 2006, 12:27 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
As always with purely fictional firearms, it would be silly to claim one view of them is mistaken, as such. Plus hazarding a guess, especially when you're admitting the limitations of your own knowledge, is never a blunder as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I consider the Super Warhawk to be in the .44 Remington Magnum - .454 Casull range -- it would be most reasonable at the lower end of that, to the tune of .429"-diameter 240-grain bullets at 1350fps (971ft-lbs of KE at the muzzle), equal to a rather hot .44 Magnum load. After all, it's only slightly more powerful than standard Heavy Pistols, the upper end of which might represented by the hotter 10mm Auto loads, such as 200-grain bullets (0.4" diameter) at 1200fps for 640ft-lbs at the muzzle. The .50 Beowulf is so much more powerful than anything you'd chamber a serious defense/combat semi-automatic pistol in that a single point of power (or DV) really doesn't cover it. As I said, though, that's just my personal view on the guns in question. If you're interested, you'll find a lot of threads on topics like this by searching for "warhawk", "10mm auto", "magnum", etc. by posted Raygun.
Depends on what you mean by "power" in this context. A 12-gauge slug is indeed much larger in diameter -- at around 0.7-0.72" vs. 0.499" for the .50 Beowulf. 12 gauge slugs can be somewhat heavier as well, usually 437-548 grains vs. 300-400 for the Beowulf. The slugs lose out on velocity by a fair margin, 1300-1600fps vs. 1800-1900fps with common loadings, which means that, on average, they have slightly less kinetic energy at the muzzle. Their potential for causing lethal wounds with the right ammunition is so similar that on the scale of representation available in Shadowrun they're pretty much equal. With substandard ammunition the higher projectile diameter of the shotgun slug guarantees a larger permanent wound cavity, but such things are not easily conveyed in SR. The nominal bore diameter of a 12 gauge is 0.729", 16 gauge is 0.663" and 20 gauge is 0.617". |
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Oct 21 2006, 02:09 AM
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#15
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
does not muzzle velocity depend on having an ideal barrel length as well?
I'd also point out the flexibility a 12 gauge gives. you can do anything, really. /enough threadjacking for tonight. |
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Oct 21 2006, 04:49 AM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't wanna! :) So, if a Warhawk is equivalent to a .454. Casull (low range), then what (SR4) Damage Value would you give to a .50 Desert Eagle? |
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Oct 21 2006, 09:56 AM
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#17
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Bullets for both cartridges are the same diameter, thus the range of bullet weights is pretty much identical. Styles are another matter. There are some spitzer-shaped bullets available for this caliber (Barnes XPB, for example). However, when loaded into the Beowulf case, the cartridge is too long to fit into the AR15 magazine. The Beowulf case is only .03" longer than the Magnum, so the difference in powder space is insignificant and the cartridges are loaded to specs very close to one another. It should also be noted that the .500 Magnum is a rimmed cartridge and as such won't work very well in an automatic action. The .50 Beowulf was designed for use in an automatic action (and for ease of conversion, uses a rebated case head the same diameter as the 7.62x39mm cartridge, for which AR15 bolts have been/are made).
As usual, it would depend mostly on bullet construction. 1800 fps is a bit faster than the other threats that most soft body armor (NIJ IIIA) is designed to defeat these days. Given the right bullet, it's certainly possible that the .50 Beowulf could penetrate soft body armor, it would however require a very uncommon bullet for the caliber. A sabot load could handle it fairly easily, I'd say.
You can call me Raygun. :) .500 S&W Magnum, 400 grain Sierra JSP @ 1625 fps:
.500 S&W Magnum, 325 grain Speer Uni-Cor @ 1800 fps:
According to this, there is a load for the Beowulf using the same bullet from a 12" barrel that is very close to the load above. (The .500 Mag loads were developed from 8.375" barrels.)
Significantly more powerful than that. In SR3, 10S seems about right to me. For SR4, I'll have to leave it to someone who has a better handle on the system than I do. It should have a whole lot of power and not terribly good AP qualities. Might be some useful info here. |
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Oct 28 2006, 03:44 AM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
my favorite gun shop has on its display case a S&W .50 magnum with a two inch barrel. Great if you're mugged by a hump backed whale but otherwise pretty useless.
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Oct 28 2006, 07:31 PM
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#19
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I'll bet there are a few Alaskan bush pilots that might disagree with you on that. The 500ES actually comes in an Emergency Survival Kit that includes a bunch of stuff that's designed to help you survive if you were to get stuck out in the boonies (fire starting kit, a saw, a knife, a whistle, a signal mirror, a compass, a couple of emergency blankets, and a book about surviving bear attacks, all in a waterproof case).
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Oct 28 2006, 08:31 PM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Well, one could almost classify being mugged by a hump backed whale as the same as being attacked by a bear... I'm not sure exactly, but it's close... sorta.
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Oct 28 2006, 08:34 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Are you kidding? You can at least identify bear victims, usually.
~J |
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Oct 29 2006, 10:27 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Length doesn't matter. The ladies don't care so much about that.
...what? |
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Oct 31 2006, 01:25 PM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
The picture dfoesn't do justice to the gun, which is like a chrome brick. I like a longer barell. If I'm trying to keep off a bear I want more accuracy so it doesn't get down to claw length. A friend of mine shot a boar once while black powder hunting. The boar charged him and dropped dead just short of his bayonet, they found the bullet had hit both lungs and the heart but the boar had kept comming form pure cussedness.
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