 Noob Mage v. Great Dragon, Does the Mage really win? |
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 Oct 19 2006, 05:43 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275  |
This was inspired by the Mages are overpowered thread. The guy who plays a mage in my team just posited the following:
Sure, a Great Dragon has 10 counterspelling dice, but the Mage only needs one hit to get the stunball off, and the GD has around 14 stun damage boxes. So two beginning Mages seem to be about enough to smoke him... is this right? |
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Oct 19 2006, 05:47 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
Maybe, but chances are the dragon's a better mage, and he has prepared a number of magical (and non-magical) defenses for just this occasion. Remember that the dragon can stunbolt the mage just as easily.
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Oct 19 2006, 05:53 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Are you assuming the two are just standing there in a parking lot face to face? LOS, visibility modifiers, etc, all come into play...and I doubt dragons are going to be relying solely on counterspelling dice...sustained spells...quickened spells...foci...
Just doesn't seem like this "perfect" environment will be common in a game... |
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Oct 19 2006, 05:57 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
A starting Samurai has a good chance of taking out a great wyrm in one swift stroke.
-15 Initiative -19 Automatics dice (not min/maxed...you could get up to 25+ for a starting character with not too much trouble) Ex-Ex Ammo + Long Narrow burst for a base damage of 12 + net hits. Sure, a Great Dragon has 10 Armor dice, but the Samurai only needs one hit to get the shot off, and the GD has around 14 physical damage boxes. So two beginning Samurai with two shots per pass seem to be about enough to smoke him... is this right? If you assume the Dragon is going to sit there and take the shot, sure, he's toast. |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:03 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 9-December 03 From: Greenville, SC Member No.: 5,889 |
I don't see where you're getting those numbers. The highest I can see a starting mage getting for Spellcasting is: Sorcery 7 + Magic 6 + Combat Spell Focus 3 + Mentor Spirit 2 = 18 dice. I'm not sure if you count that as min/maxed, but it certainly seems maxed to me.
He overcasts Stunball at Force 12, generating (on average) 6 hits. The "standard" Great Western Dragon has Willpower 13, Counterspelling 10, giving him 23 dice to resist with. On average the dragon gets 7 hits and completely resists the spell. The wyrm also has 6 Edge and lots of weird stuff he can do with it above and beyond the normal things you can do with edge (see the unique Twist Fate power of Great Dragons). |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:08 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Yeah, I was thinking that anything above 12 spellcasting dice is on the path of min/maxing...especially for a starting character...
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Oct 19 2006, 06:09 PM
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#7
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
It should never be anywhere near that easy. Just tossing in things like foci, quickened spells, anchored spells, shielding, reflecting, and spirits would be more than enough. Dragons should be much more than just stats.
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Oct 19 2006, 06:19 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
But the GD has Armor plus body to resist a physical attack, that's over thirty dice (body 25 + Armor 12). Compared to Willpower plus Counterspell, it's not the same.
Plus a specialty, and he's got some other shit, I'll have to ask him.
Yeah, one noob mage would just hurt the GD, I'm saying two noob mages would smoke him like a loosie. Personally, I'd like to completely debunk this situation he's suggested. But the fact remains that half-team of Mage runners can win intiative and kill a Great Dragon in one turn... |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:19 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Spellcasting 6, magic 6. Specialization in combat spells. Power focus 3. Mentor spirit. That's 19 dice. That's a pretty strong focus on powerful spells, though. I don't see how you would get a mage up to 25 starting easily, or really at all. If you're including Edge, then sure. Now getting a sammy up to 19 is easy. 25 is hard, but doable. |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:31 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 9-December 03 From: Greenville, SC Member No.: 5,889 |
As far as I can tell, 19 dice versus 23 dice still leaves the dragon unscathed on average. It's true that if the mage gets lucky on his spellcasting and the dragon unlucky on his resistance things could turn out differently. That's why the dragon has a bunch of Edge. Also, some of those same toys the mage is using to boost his spellcasting pool can also be used by the dragon. I can't imagine a great wyrm without a power focus (which I think can be added to counterspelling tests), and at least some level of initiation, possibly including Shielding, Absorption, and/or Reflecting metamagic techniques. |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:33 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Aid Sorcerry, Force 6 Spirit. 25 right there. |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:38 PM
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#12
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Better make that a Force 3 Combat Spellcasting focus. A Force 3 Power Focus is availability 15 and outside the grasp of a starting character. In any case, you could throw in Edge. Hell, you could overcast and summon a Force 12 Spirit of Man and throw it in to cast a spell at Force 24 with a dicepool of 24. You could really go to town. And Twist Fate doesn't actually work, since it requires te use of actions and can't be aborted to. As per the riles, the only use for Twist Fate is offensively to counter the point of Edge someone spends to try to save their punk ass from a dragon's attacks. But Counterspelling foci do! So does magical guard from bound spirits. And Shielding dice apply. And the Dragon can also spend Edge. So even if you've got your 25 die pool with the rule of 6, you're looking at an average of 10 hits. The great dragon is looking at a dice pool of about 30 and can reroll failures. So you don't do crap to him even if you get the jump on the wyrm. Now, a sniper rifle with ExEx is a totally different ballgame. A decent dicepool fired from a long distance and total concealment means that the Dragon doesn't even get a defense pool. Suddenly he just has to resist the damage, and even with his 20 points of hardened armor (15 after AP), he just isn't going to soak it all. A Street Sam or two with an uninterupted line of fire can call a shot right in the eye and just plain kill Lofwyr. In that respect, he's just like any other public figure. Snipers could totally kill him. That they haven't yet is mostly testament to the fact that he's really careful. -Frank |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:41 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
Bound spirits can add their force to the spellcasting roll, that inflates the dice pool even more. I just didn't think that any beginning characters could hope to touch a GD, and there's a definte chance for the GD to lose given this situation. |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:46 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It is a smart idea for any great dragon to be careful every momment of every day. He's known that longer than any starting mage has been alive, and has enemies that may even be older than he is. The great dragon that stands across a football field ready to play gunslinger games with mages is a great dragon that has suffered severe brain damage and is likely to be dead soon anyway at the hands of beings far scarier than your mage.
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Oct 19 2006, 06:47 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
Don't worry. We're working on it. |
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Oct 19 2006, 06:51 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Well, and I think that is the trick...getting to that specific situation when it just comes down to who's got the biggest dice pool. I know what you are trying to do, but the reality of it is that you won't be facing off with a GD in a prime situation...but, I suppose if you do have the time to get all your preparation in before meeting, even a noob could take out a poorly readied GD. |
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Oct 19 2006, 07:01 PM
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#17
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Personally, I see this as one of the nice things about Shadowrun. Planning and dedication count for a lot more than some super-high stats. It lends the game such a different feel to games like D&D. That said, your dragon is going to be about Log 7, so if either party is likely to have planned further ahead, it ain't going to be the PC. My suggestion is to take the player at his word and send him against a standard western dragon. If the team even manage to get face to face with the beast, behind his layers of contacts, schemes and stooges, they'll be doing well. Let alone catching it without its bodyguard. If Mr. Corp Exec has them, then why shouldn't a dragon? |
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Oct 19 2006, 07:25 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
My starting social/stealth adept can easily destroy an aircraft carrier. He just need to swim up to the carrier and use his subtactical nuclear warhead.
[/irony] |
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Oct 19 2006, 07:54 PM
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#19
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
I have a BFG. You don't. Please stand still over there while I point it at you and pull the trigger.
Hey wait why are you running away? |
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Oct 19 2006, 10:45 PM
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#20
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I think that is the key to the whole of it. If someone got the drop on a GD they have already pulled off the miracle. I actually like GD being somewhat vulnerable if you get past their legions and planning and treachery. Not some freaking Tarsque-like monolith that you need a flock of Stirges to bring down. :cyber: But then I've never had a dragon make a personal appearance in a game, and I never want my PC to meet one, nor do I expect to ever GM a game where the player's characters will meet one. P.S. What selfrespecting plotdevice GD, intended as an unkillable NPC, isn't going to be Initiated a bazillion times over with some Metamagic to boost Counterspell dice pool and have some focus on his body that gives him an extra fistfull of Counterspelling dice for all spell catagories? |
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Oct 19 2006, 11:34 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The one that got smart and took the Harlequin route. That is, "to be an unkillable plot device you can't have stats at all." |
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Oct 20 2006, 12:42 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Wow, now that I think about it one of my characters has met 3 of them. Hestaby, Ghostwalker, and Hualpa. Thats insane, my gm is insane. |
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Oct 20 2006, 01:08 AM
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#23
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Not quite. If he's running a SOTF-like campaign, I can see you meeting much more than those 3. |
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Oct 20 2006, 01:12 AM
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#24
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...a few of my characters also ended up meeting GDs, & quickly retired afterwards. Tomoe: Lofie, Hestaby and some GD from Hong Kong (forget the name) Leela: Rhonabwry Desert: Hestaby Lana Lane: Rhonabwry, Hestaby, and a Sea Dragon (again, the name escapes me) Not a good pattern here. |
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Oct 20 2006, 01:53 AM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Conclusion; SOTF is insane? ;) |
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