 Charisma & Etiquette, Negotiation in SR3, Beyond a -2 TN Modifier |
  |
  Oct 21 2006, 03:11 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944  |
Hey, need some advice from you guys. I have a few characters in my campaign that have high Charisma values (one of them is particularly high, as she has Cultured Tailored Pheremones 2). I've seen the applications to Initimidation and Interrogation, and Charisma's value to an Awakened characher is apparent in astral space or for summoning.
However, aside from negating Racism and probably giving a -2 TN modifer (Friendly attitude), Charisma doesn't seem to do much mechanically with these skills. Which is frustrating, because these are some of the skills my group use the most. So, does anyone have any thoughts on how I can factor this attribute into these skills a bit more? I'm thinking of either SR4-izing the rolls for these tests and having them roll CHA + Skill (which doesn't appeal to me as that screws up the SR3 mechanic and it could add a shitload of dice to keep track of, not to mention screwing any low CHA character that doesn't have mad Social Skills) or making a Charisma/Social Pool to all Social Skill tests (which also gives me problems because I have to define the source values for the pool, keep track of it outside of NSRCG and it doesn't solve the problem because some of the high CHA characters don't have high Social Skill values and therefore couldn't make real use of the pool). I could do target number adjustment, but that's more micromanaging. Any thoughts on the matter that could arrive at an ideal solution would be appriciated. |
 |
 
|
|
Oct 21 2006, 04:01 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Charisma governs an NPC's initial reaction to a PC, before any social skills are even used. So a high Charisma is important if you ever use any Attribute-only tests. And it is easier to default on a social skill that the character doesn't know with a high Charisma.
The main utility of a high Charisma is that linked social skills are cheaper to buy. Someone with a Charisma of 2 can have Negotiation: 6, but it will cost him a lot more. In the same way, you can have a low Quickness but a high Pistols skill. Other than that, why should someone with a high Charisma get any more special bonuses? A high Charisma is social aptitude, but it's possible to have that and not have developed it. Giving someone with a high Charisma additional advantages is like giving the sammie extra dice for unarmed combat because of his high Strength. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2006, 06:47 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
SR2 had a Social Pool defined as Charisma + Intelligence / 3 (or 2, I can't recall offhand) for use with social skills.
Glyph is right about linked skills. Plus, all of the social skills except for Intimidation and Interrogation can only be defaulted to Charisma (which adds a +4 mod), and not to another linked skill. So if you don't have every social skill, and god-forbid need to default, you want to hope to have a decent Charisma stat because you're going to be working at a huge disadvantage. Edited because I forgot a few words, and for clarity. This post has been edited by SL James: Oct 21 2006, 08:05 AM |
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2006, 07:58 AM
Post
#4
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944 |
Right, but if a PC plays to his or her strengths, this does not commonly occur. Actually, I cannot remember any SR session I have GMed in the past three years where someone defaulted (in any of the three applications). If the main purpose for Charisma in regards to Social Skills is to reduce their cost, then that is a poor use for the attribute. All the other attributes in SR3 have well-defined and potent applications within the rules. Body is obvious. Quickness provides the basis for many dice pools, derived attributes, movement, combat...practically every field in SR - save for that of the magician - uses Quickness as a vital stat. Strength is vital for determining most melee combat damage and for determining various physical manipulation statistics. Everyone receives additional combat prowess from Inteligence, and mages and deckers receive additionial dice pools as well (this doesn't even mention the benefits a high Inteligence grants to learning skills, etc.). And Willpower is the brain's Body, especially useful for the Awakened, deckers and riggers. The main problem with Charisma is that it just doesn't do very much compaired to the other attributes, and it has less utility linked with it than the other five attributes. Sure, what it is linked to it are a Face's bread and butter, but it has little direct effect on those skills outside of the Interrogation and Intimidation skills. You could argue the point that the conjuring side of it qualifies it for "multi-architype" utility, but in reality it affects only a small segment of a balanced gaming group (one or two magical characters plus the face). The other mental attributes, OTOH, affect deckers and riggers as well as mages, faces and gunbunnies. Charisma, which has no say in damage absorbtion, should have at least as much utility as Strength, if not Quickness and Inteligence. Let's take the example you have presented for the skills. If someone is attempting to sway opinion or actions with raw "beauty" alone, then it of course should make the action harder perform. That is what defaulting is for. However, if my Elven Face NPC (not an actual character in my campaign, just an example) has a Charisma of 7, 11 if you factor in Cult. Pheremones 2 and has Negotiation 3. Not complaining about rolling three dice on a test, that's pretty normal. But - my Charisma of 11 is not having any meaningful impact on the test whatsoever. I might get a -2 modifier, but that's about it. Hell, if I had a Charisma of 5 or 6 I could probably get that -2 modifier. That can't be *all* it does outside of summoning and the base skill rules. All I am asking for is some way to add additional functionality to the attribute, not nessarily as a power booster to Social Skills. However, since Social Skills should be the bread and butter of Charisma, that is where I am attempting to focus my efforts. Anyway, I'm done ranting. No hard feelings, just get annoyed when something isn't as fully utilized as I think it could be in a gaming setting. This is probably rambling by now so I am off to rejuvnate. 'Night. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2006, 08:00 AM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944 |
Well, I suppose that will have to be used a temporary fix. Thanks though, James. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2006, 08:06 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
No prob. Check out the edit I made to my post, which I mistyped, about how the SR3 rules make Charisma at least as important as in SR4.
Cripes. I play a social adept. I should have caught that. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2006, 03:29 PM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 12-July 05 From: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Member No.: 7,496 |
If you are the GM and you think that 11 should be more effective in the negotiation attempt than 5 or 6, just make up the results. Why should you be restriced to the -2TN mod ? Good roleplaying and high stats could grant some extra successes to the negotiation roll, but thereīs no need, IMO, to add more dice or extra rulings to the gameīs mechanic. In the game i gm, one of the players has some mafia background, reflected by some mafia specific background skill. When dealing with the mafiosi, i always grant him some extra bonuses, like changing the base price beforehand on some bargaining attempt, but that never included any specific mechanics. my 2 :nuyen: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2006, 03:48 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 7-May 06 From: Winnipeg Member No.: 8,532 |
I used to give one contact per charisma point during character creation (instead of the normal 2). Of course it's very limited and doesn't change anything during the game (compared to body or quickness) but I thought it was a nice way to give a "power boost" to charisma. Elves usually love it :)
And I think that charisma, in most games, is a "nebulous" attribute and kinda needs to be considered by the gm outside of the aspect of game mechanics. Shadowrun doesn't need more tables, modifiers, or rules... Peace! Crossfire |
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2006, 04:29 PM
Post
#9
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
While I agree Shadowrun 3rd edition doesn't need more rules, leaving Charisma to GM arbitration is the wrong way to go as it leads to the issues that this thread brings up. Charisma has limited natural effect in the game unless your GM goes out of his way to make it matter. That's why you don't see this issue with other attributes such as Quickness and Strength. And many GMs allow for straight roleplaying without need for dice. While simple to do, it makes Charisma far less useful as if you can talk well in real life you don't need it. One way to help out Charisma is the social pool. Another is make it factor into the magical pool. However Charisma will likely stay the odd-man out of attributes go as most characters can do fine without it as long as someone else has it. The face can go talk to the NPCs and set up the con job while you stay quiet. It's your often alone it does matter more, but fewer people play that way. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2006, 05:09 PM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
It was (Cha + Int) / 2. From Beyond the Shadows (SRII) p.48, under Optional Dice pools. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2006, 05:25 PM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
One contact per point of Charisma? For Cha 6-8 characters, that seems like a lot. But I like the idea, and I think I may go with Cha / 2 in contacts to start the game instead of the default 2. ----------------------------------- I think I may also allow the Social Pool back into the game. ----------------------------------- A rhetorical question: Why do I find myself liking so many parts of SRII whenever I wind up looking back into those rules? My answer: While some things did need change and integration to resolve problems, not everything that was changed needed to be changed. Fact: I'm more than eight years late to this debate. <sigh /> |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2006, 09:06 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
It's all about language groups, dude.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2006, 09:39 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944 |
True, true. Actually, I generally roleplay conversations that aren't important (most of them). When it's serious business though (Negotiations or where bad ettiquite will get you killed), that's when the dice come out. Also for interrogation/intimidation tests. I like to use dependable mechanics for those kinds of situations. Besides, my players get bored after awhile if they don't roll any dice (and my games can be dice-light at times). In your second statement, the one about Knowledge Skills, reminded me about something (unrelated to your interesting point re: bonuses w/out mechanics). Complementary dice. This is probably going to be a "throwing stones at a hornet's nest" kind of statement, but why not use Charisma as a Complementary Skill (or in this case, attribute) for a Social Test? I know that it kind of throws those rules in a tizzy, but why not if it works? You would need two successes on your Charisma dice, so the Elven Face example that I have above could (if she were lucky) receive only five extra successes on a Social Skill test. It's wouldn't be terribly unbalancing, especially in instances where one is dealing with higher than average target numbers. For example, on average with TN 4 and the aforementioned 11 CHA dice, one should score 5 to 6 complementary successes (or 2 to 3 full successes for the test). At TN 6, this should drop to two or three complementary successes (or 1 full success). OTOH, it kind of violates that mechanic and a few others as well. It could set a precedent that players may try to exploit via a logical argument ("If I can get comp. dice from CHA for my Social Tests, then I should be able to do the same for QCK and Combat Skills!"). It also doesn't work well with Interrogation and Intimidation, which are Open Tests and are thus kind of impossible to gel with Complementary Dice. It may not be all that useful with the tests that route is compatible with, and it adds more stuff to keep track of. On second thought, the dice pool mentioned previously still sounds like the best route when you need the mechanics. Still, the new option may be fun to experiment with... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2006, 09:52 PM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944 |
Dunno about it not being a big up. One of the more recent characters in my primary campaign had five contacts at the start, and he got ALOT of stuff done with them. Of course, he was the party's Face (lawyer by day, runner by night), so that was sort of to be expected. Still, it's quite a bit more acceptable in-game than the "albino dwarf mage with Aptitude:Sorcery" character. I had a bit of a discussion with the interested player about that (and some heartburn on top of that). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 22 2006, 12:28 AM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
You might want to sit down and list some exact situations where Charisma is more appropriate than any social skill: picking up a partner for the night, distracting someone by making a scene, stuff like that. Make sure your players are aware of that list.
Sometimes players go too far in deciding which skill to roll to accomplish certain tasks. Be firm and clear and give them an option. Player:"I'll use fast talk to get the Humanis goon on my good side." GM:"You can use fast talk to convince him you're a member, but he still won't like you." Charisma can be a target number for other characters acting against your character. Say for a willpower test to spill his guts on your whereabouts. Charisma not only affects first impressions, but I also think it addresses overall feelings towards you, whereas social skills are used to accomplish specific goals. For example, if a runner successfully negotiates with Mr. Johnson for more money, great, but Mr. Johnson is gonna consider the character's charisma when he's thinking about calling them for another job. A salesman might get me to buy some crappy software with fast talk, but his charisma is going to decide if I refer him to my friends. Also think about cultural relevance. You might want to make Charisma fill in for any social skill (defaulting or not, your call) if the PC is in an unfamiliar culture. Just suggestions. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 22 2006, 12:41 AM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
That's not how cultured pheromes work. They add dice to Charisma and social skill tests. So in your hypothetical example, your elven face would be rolling 7 dice for negotiations, not 3. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 22 2006, 01:38 AM
Post
#17
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yeah! And then when your characters go and try to shoot something, if you think having Quickness 11 should be more effective than just 5 or 6, just make up those results too! In fact, what do we need these dice for? Edit: I know LordHaHa recognizes this flaw, but he presents it as something that can be exploited elsewhere. My point is that if you rule this way, you're exploiting it here, and that your game has already been stripped of what claim to rules-following it might have had. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 22 2006, 07:58 AM
Post
#18
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944 |
Geez, I'm getting sloppy with these "two sessions per month" intervals. :P Yeah, you're spot on though. I guess I that didn't register in my sleep and coffee-deprived state for some reason. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 22 2006, 12:42 PM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 12-July 05 From: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Member No.: 7,496 |
I think my point was not really understood... In meant that if a player sets the situation in such a way that he should take advantage of his charisma, then , imo, itīs ok if the gm applies a different modifier (add some successes to the final roll ,change the base price, whatever) intstead of just the -2TN. As itīs written it might seem that i am going pro diceless roleplaying, but thatīs not really what i meant. I tried to come out with an example of a player using his quickness to get and advantage in a situation involving a quickness-related skill roll, but i couldnīt think of any. :( Thinking of it, a player with quickness 11 getīs 5.5 to reaction and combat pool from his high stat. That is already adding dice to a lot of combat situations... |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 22 2006, 01:16 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
What about interpreting attribute values as a game mechanic? If you donīt need it for anything (and TN-2 is certainly not nothing). High charisma will only take you so far; at some point skill will be needed.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 22 2006, 03:27 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 7-December 05 Member No.: 8,056 |
You could allow a character who has an attribute that is higher than its linked skill to roll the skill dice plus roll (attribute-skill value) dice at the defaulting target number. Example: A character with Cha 8 Neg. 6 would roll 6 dice vs the established TN plus 2 more dice at TN+4.
or You could make more of the tests Opposed tests if they aren't already. That way the character's higher Cha helps out by raising his opponent's TN. This is how it works in our game and I don't know if that's the way the rules read or not. That's the way my GM said it works so that's the way it works. My mage character uses a Increase Cha. +6 when he goes intelligence gathering because he suffers a +2 TN for sustaining the spell but hois opponents TN is increased by 6 for his increased Cha. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 22 2006, 04:50 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
Players might roll dice equal to their character's Charisma at the beginning of a social encounter. The target would be 4 plus the normal modifiers for NPC attitude, etc.
The successes achieved would be held in a temporary pool that could be applied as the player wished to social skill tests during that social encounter. The total successes applied to any one test may not exceed the rating of the Skill actively being used. If a default Attribute is being used, then the limit is 1/2 of that Attribute's rating. If combat commenced, or if any of the involved parties left, the social encounter is interrupted and ends immediately. It may be that parties arriving can also interrupt a social encounter (GM's discretion). A player may attempt to roll again after the interruption of a social encounter (except by combat) at +1 TN/interruption to that point. There, that's a way to have Charisma influence things. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 22 2006, 06:08 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944 |
That's a little bit complicated, at least the way it is presented. Perhaps this: Character-1 (the afector) and Character-2 (the affectee) are about to engage in Social Skill use. They both roll Charisma (4) Tests + modifers from the Social Supertable (p. 94, SR3). Successes from these tests are used be the characters as bonus dice to their respective tests. In the case of Ettiquite and any other unresisted Success Tests, only Character-1 makes the aforementioned Charisma (4) Test. Actually, you could change that last line to: "In the case of Ettiquite and any other unresisted Success Tests, Character-1 rolls normally while Character-2 rolls the Charisma (4) Test to increase Character-1's target number on the upcoming Social Skill test. Every two sucesses that Character-2 acquires adds a +1TN penalty to Character-1's test.". With a top-spec Charisma rating, the maximum this would increase the target number to (by itself) would be a +4 or +5. Most of the time though you would be looking at a more manageable increase like +1 or +2. This method is simple to implement and the mechanics don't seem too overboard either way, at least on the surface they don't. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 23 2006, 04:00 AM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Another idea: Charisma might represent what others think the character's other mental attributes are. Imagine a guy who's really bright, but hesitant to speak and awkward around people. They'd take him to be a bit dumb. If you like somebody, you're probably gonna think they're smarter or braver, mentally tougher, whatever.
Charisma also kind of implies an ability to read people. You might want to try using it to determine dice for sensing a lie, and forming an accurate impression of others. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 23 2006, 06:45 AM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944 |
So you could apply this modifier to, say, an Inteligence Test to determine if Joe Blow is a moron or not? If so, that could actually be pretty cool. I hadn't thought about that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 27th April 2024 - 06:07 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.