 Dysfunctional players, Stories? |
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 Oct 24 2006, 05:20 AM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 7-January 05 From: Ultra wideband Member No.: 6,944  |
I'll pass over that little bit at the beginning and go straight to the real heart of the matter: why did he think that downloading that crap during a gaming session was a good idea in the first place? Although in a way, I really don't want to know why. |
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Oct 24 2006, 05:35 AM
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#52
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
As a matter of principle, I find it best for the GM to examine all of the rolls, anyway. It discourages fibbing on the part of the players, especially in life-or-death situations.
I must also ask if this was actual countless-Federal-charges-will-be-filed-against-him child pornogrphy or constitutionally protected 'lolicon' artwork. If it were the former a tip to the police would not be unwise. If it were the latter it i inapproperiate in most (but not all) shadowrun games but far less disturbing. |
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Oct 24 2006, 05:48 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 17-June 02 From: Concord University, Athens, WV Member No.: 2,880 |
All I've ever actually seen is lolicon, but there could always be worse. A couple of the other players have implied as much, at least.
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Oct 24 2006, 07:26 AM
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#54
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I can probably guess this from the legality, but what is "lolicon"? I'm not sure I really want to know, but if a gamer looked at anything vaguely suggestive of child pornography I'd sit him down and give him a list of counsellors and tell him to contact one of them. Possibly I'd try and get him to have sex with a woman so he can get over whatever issues he has with grown-up partners. I don't know. But no-one would look at porn of any kind during one of my games. |
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Oct 24 2006, 08:24 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Man this topic has gotten serious.
Well here's a serious story involving a player, not as serious as the ones above. But still serious. Now this story is hard to tell with out names so I'll make up a few. There was Jack (me) Phil (the dysfuntio) and Bill (the other guy) Now we are all over at my house playing D&D like we do every wensday. Phil is not answering his cell phone because its his parents who he thinks want to lecture him and he doesn't want to deal with that on D&D night. (Phil is over 18 just so you know) After a while they call on Bill's phone several times looking for Phil. We then have OTHER people calling, it not being phill's parents Bill answers. Turns out Phil's parents have gotten other people we know to start looking for him. We now decided that maybe Phil needs to leave. While preparing to drive home with Bill who drove him there to begain with. There is a knock at the back door. Phil's parents SENT his older brother to fetch him. Turns out his parent's got the idea into there head he was suicidal. Now you see, Phil had been kicked out of his apartment shortly after being laid off from his Job so he was going to have to move back home. Which was why he was avoiding a lecture. Turns out his parents paniced when he didn't meet with his brother outside the apartment building that day to help move his stuff out. Despite the fact they were well aware he would be at D&D like he was every Wednesday for the past several months. |
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Oct 24 2006, 08:29 AM
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#56
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Maybe I'm just a big jerk -- well, okay, that's a given, but anyways -- but it seems to me that during all these horrible stories about horrible people, as I read them, I hear myself thinking "Yeah, idiot, but you hung out with him."
I mean, seriously, guys. If someone's that messed up, that big a social reject, that stupid, that obnoxious, that crazy, whatever -- why are you gaming with them? Why socialize with them? Why have them as an acquaintance or friend, if you think so little of them (and in most cases, rightfully so)? Why invite them into your home, or go into theirs? Why hang out with pedophiles, crazy people that think they're vampires, pathological liars, etc? Are you that desperate for friends? I dunno. Maybe I'm the crazy one, for only gaming with people I like... but, I mean, it's working for me so far. I don't have stories like these to tell, except for a few random strangers I've run into at cons or something. The folks I share a gaming (and even a wargaming) table with are literate, clean, socially well-adjusted people that just happen to have a single geeky hobby. We bathe, some of us are married (to gamer girls, no less), none of us have lived with our parents since being 18-19 or so, etc, etc. Is this sort of set-up that rare, when the rest of you seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel just to throw together a five-man party? If these social misanthropes are so socially misanthropic, why do you hang out with them? |
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Oct 24 2006, 08:32 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Well often times you invite someone into playing and it turns out to be a mistake. You might also like the guy as a person and friend but hate them as a gamer. But most of the people mentioned above are not the type I'd hang out with. This topic was so much better when it was more about the dysfunction as it effected in the game. Not the this person needs professional help. |
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Oct 24 2006, 08:39 AM
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#58
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Hardly. It's a stupidity issue just the same (and in greater magnitude, IMO), but "moral"? Sahandrian: please be more specific. "Lolicon" is not child pornography, not any more than an in-game movie of Doom is a snuff film.
Just a hint, you may want to look into some of the research into the phenomenon. Whether it be actual pedophilia or simply arousal at lolicon material, your idea that sex with an adult partner will miraculously erase it is woefully misguided. ~J, fighting "death to The Other" sentiment |
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Oct 24 2006, 08:45 AM
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#59
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
knasser, you have used the internet before? Is it even possible to use the internet and not know what lolicon is?
Well, I guess so. Maybe you she away from the anime, video-gamer, and japanophile subcultures. Lolicon, is a Japanese contraction of 'Lolita complex' and generally refers to both erotic, romantic, and fanservice anime images of females who are depicted as being young and individuals who are attracted to such images (or actual young girls if one happens to be in Japan). There is no explicit cutoff for the age of the characters (and anime tends to blur age lines considerably with cute childish facial features on everyone and rather mature looking teenagers) but the category is usually reserved for characters who appear to be (but may not necessarily be in their canon) pubescent and barely post-pubescent adolescents or younger. For example, Washu's chibi form in Tenchi Muyo would be considered lolicon despite the fact that she is a several-thousand-year-old shape-shifting genius ex-goddess yet Sailor Moon would not usually be considered lolicon despite the fact that she is 14 when her series begins simply because she is drawn to appear to be far more physically mature than she is in canon. The term really spans a wide berth from non-explicit images of "Gothic Lolitas" (girls, usually young but sometimes not young and sometimes not girls, dressed in traditional Victorian children's clothing) which are exemplified by various vampire series with eternally youthful protagonists to some of the more explicit shoujo-ai romances (particularly fan images of young characters participating in non-canon lesbian romance), to hardcore pornographic manga anthologies and doujinshi such as Lo. There is also the more extreme sub-genre of toddlercon which is almost always hardcore pornography and is far less accepted amongst lolicon enthusiasts. Toddlercon is banned from the loli sections of some imageboards as a matter of taste. Most Futaba style imageboards that allow anime pornography also have some sort of lolicon section and it can be said to be almost mainstream amongst imageboard culture, although imageboard culture is generally a niche culture in a niche culture (anime and Japanophile) so calling it almost mainstream isn't exactly saying much, (Of course, some popular imageboards do boast tens of thousands (or more) of unique hits per day and 4chan has 680 seats at the Otakon 2006 Panel; so while still nich among nich imageboards are growing uite rapidly.) However, such boards have been known to have funding problems. 4chan (which survives on donations) notoriously their paypal account and had issues with several other electronic funds transfer companies due to their lolicon board and eventually move it to the privately funded non4chan domain which had its own servers. Other boards with loli sections have been DDoSed or spammed with actual child porn by vigilantes. Something Awful's "lolicost", the most famous of such campaigns, took down several of the less well funded and less robust lolicon imageboards permanently. However, as time has gone on, it has become less of a big deal amongst the internet subcultures that are aware of it and one can find lolicon video games, imagesets, and full manga on Rapidshare and various unlicensed anime torrent trackers. The male version of lolicon is shotacon, a contraction of 'Shotaru Complex'. Shotaru is a popular name for boys in Japan. The poster child of shotacon is Bridget, a young male character from the Guilty Gear video game series who wears a bizzare nun's habit for some reason. They say that Bridget makes you gay. One thing to note is that the individual may have sexual fantasies about being a young girl rather than fantasies about being with a young girl. There is some minor overlap between the lolicon subculture and the sexual subculture of furry culture, in particular, "cub" pornography in the furry subculture and self-transformative fantasies in the lolicon subculture (although self-transformative lolicons are rarely furries and sexual furries are rarely lolicons). This is likely if he mixes his lolicon with transgender/transexual images and hyperfeminine shotacon. He may also be attracted to the lolicon aestetic (including the exagerated anime features that would look downright horrific on an actual person) rather than young girls in general, as Kagetenshi mentioned. It could also be that he surfs Futaba style imageboards for the anomyous social interaction and the horrific flaming that unrestricted anonymous posting invites (if you think some posters here can be bad then just try checking 4chan's /b (Random) board. The /b-tards make us look absolutly tame by comparison) and just happened like the atmosphere of a particular lolicon board. Unlikely, but possible. The lolicon and shotacon communities, in general, hate actual child pornography and child abuse with a passion; and posts of child pornography, requests for child pornography, or mention of actual sexual contact with a child on a lolicon or shotacon site will lead to a permanant IP ban and an E-mail of the offending IP address to the aproperiate authorities. |
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Oct 24 2006, 09:24 AM
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#60
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, it is a moral issue (assuming we are talking about a real friend and real child porn). It is a moral issue for every single person at the table, because being an illegal (and some would say dangerous) act, they would have to choose how to respond (ignore it - call the cops - kick his head in - etc). |
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Oct 24 2006, 09:30 AM
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#61
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Less so than the case of someone cheating on a spouse. That at least has a victim that isn't the friend. Again, keeping in mind the difference between creating and possessing/viewing. ~J |
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Oct 24 2006, 09:54 AM
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#62
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't believe that to be the case (but then again I have kids), but we are each entitled to own own moral outlook. :)
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Oct 24 2006, 09:59 AM
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#63
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Fair enow.
~J |
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Oct 24 2006, 10:07 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
arg this topic has gone way off course.
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Oct 24 2006, 10:27 AM
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#65
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
In the case of actual child pronography it is a moral issue unless you believe in supply-side economics to the exclusion of all else. In the real world, demand creates supply. This is especially true of renewable and nonfinite goods such as enterainment products. If you view it then someone will rip it off and try to sell you their own version.
In order to view or possess it you must get it from somewhere and if you got it from somewhaere then someone knows about our demand for the product and that someone will be far more likely to make more product to satisfy your demand. Only the most isolated aquesition methods (finding discarded in a landfill) are so divorced from the supply that they do not induce the creation of more supply to some degree. However, in this case there was no child pornography. There was simply drawings of anime characters in compromising positions, which is certainly not the same. Unless, of course, we find out that the plots of Cool World and Who Framed Roger Rabit and accurate to life and all cartoon characters exist for real somewhere. |
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Oct 24 2006, 10:49 AM
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#66
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Demand only creates supply when that demand is monetized. I agree that paying for child pornography tips it back into the "moral issue" realm, for exactly the reason you cite. However, we are on the internet. Usenet and peer-to-peer filesharing programs make "finding discarded in a landfill" pretty much the easiest way to go about it. Due to the stigma associated with it, I've only gotten four people to talk about their personal practices in that regard, so I admit that my sample may not be representative. However, it is proof-of-concept, as it were. ~J |
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Oct 24 2006, 11:36 AM
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#67
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Ah, but such transactions are always incentivized in some way. The currency may be as intangible as respect and esteem, or it may simply be barter. In fact, individual demand has a far greater effect on small barter economies than it has on full sized economies. Simple picture-for-picture trading does encourage someone to create more pictures if for no other reason than to trade them for more pictures. In the case of more alutistic distributions that don't rely on the tit-for-tat model the distribution of unique or original material can serve to fuel an individual's ego. This is evident in the firesharing community's zero-day release groups. Those who make zero-day releases do so at their on monetary expense and legal peril in order to feed their own egos. The more people who download the release the better they'll fell about it.
Finding child pornography on USENET is all but impossible, ditto for file sharing networks and the WWW. Even if it weren't P2P and the WWW give a record of every download, which will fuel egos. However, the extreme difficulty of finding this material through standard chennels encourages direct bartering amongst likeminded individuals over the myriad of chat and IM systems, which provides a bar more direct economic incentive than other methods could. |
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Oct 24 2006, 11:42 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Damn this is a creepy thread.
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Oct 24 2006, 11:54 AM
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#69
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I suppose miraculously erase it isn't what I meant, but I'd kind of figured somehow that peadophillia came from some heavy issues with dealing with real women - was maybe a need to find someone the peadophile wasn't threatened by. I don't know much about it and I probably should before making suggestions. But to be honest, it's something I don't feel like reading into in any more depth. Hyzmarca - thank you for your extensive explanation of lollicon. Yes - I have heard of the Internet, but thankfully had somehow managed to avoid all that. As you correctly guessed, I'm not into anime. I've seen Cowboy Bebop the Movie (cool soundtrack), but a lot of the sub-cultures associated with role-playing have passed me by. I'm not into comics, despise most TV sci-fi and am not into computer games. Yes - I am a misfit amongst geeks. :D I pretty much just found this one hobby as a child and have loved it ever since. I just love making characters and telling stories. At the people who are discussing whether viewing child pornography is a moral issue or not, I've not heard anyone raise the issue of the peadophile harming themself. Perhaps it's just taken as a given amongst those discussing it, that everyone has a right to self-harm (even psychologically), or possibly (and rightly) the issue is simply thought of as far less important than the possible harm to children. But if you regard peadophillia as a dysfunction and a problem, then isn't moral to try and help that person overcome it and immoral to ignore their problem? I realise how many other things that could be applied to, from religious faith to homosexuality to eugenics, and how dangerous the argument is... but peadophillia? Surely someone like that needs help. |
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Oct 24 2006, 11:57 AM
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#70
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I didn't know that at the time of my first post, and qualified my others with a disclaimer to that effect. ;) As to the legality of lolicon, not everywhere is as permissive on the subject as the States or Japan. There have been cases elsewhere that have resulted in prison sentences. |
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Oct 24 2006, 12:03 PM
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#71
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I really do have to disagree with this statement. The crap pops up all over the place in all of those mediums, even if you aren't looking for it. It may be that new material is hard-to-impossible to find, but there is certainly no lack of the subject matter in general. Damn, this is a fucked up topic to be discussing on Dumpshock. Unfortunately it can be seen to be relevant, given the recent references to this subject in the Shadowrun books. I feel dirty. :( |
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Oct 24 2006, 12:22 PM
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#72
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Whether or not it's intrinsically harmful is an issue that I won't get into (look into pederasty in ancient culture if you want a starting point for researching that question), but I would find it hard to believe that in the US or UK it would be possible to have those inclinations (let alone act on them via child pornography) without serious self-worth issues brought on by popular demonization.
I do not believe we can productively discuss this, as we clearly come from different planets.
I can entirely understand that. I would encourage you, however, to remember what you yourself recognize in the previous sentence: if you aren't going to do the research, it's probably best not to make guesses as to motivations and proper corrective action. There are a number of topics for which "common sense" is a woefully bad teacher, and psychology in general is one of them. ~J |
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Oct 24 2006, 01:15 PM
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#73
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well that's the opposite of what I said, which was that the dysfunction is brought on by self-worth issues, not the other way around. And whilst popular demonisation in the press is never constructive (I think the current witchhunting of muslims has driven that message home), I hardly think a peadophile would suffer self-loathing primarily as a result of that, rather than from sheer self-knowledge. But as you say, it's not a topic I know a great deal about and as I'm self-confessedly not inclined to look into it much further, I'll leave it there in so far as explaining it or offering solutions.
Indeed. I've re-posted my "on-topic" comment from earlier to your new thread and I'd suggest out of respect we try very hard to keep that one to the original subject. But conversation wanders and topics drift and that can often be a good thing. It's certainly limiting to fix a topic at the start and not allow new ones to spring up. I think as a forum, we're very good at judging when to branch off into a new thread and when to just allow something to evolve into a conversation. The latter usually happens when either the original issue is resolved or if there wasn't enough material in the original subject to sustain a thread. I guess in this case it might be the latter as we seem to be out of dysfunctional player stories by this point. Probably as Shadowrun players we're all a far too intelligent and astute not to be able to weed out the really scary people early on. ;) |
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Oct 24 2006, 01:38 PM
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#74
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Doesn't explain pederasty, though—well-brought-up ancient Greek boys were practically expected to have been having sex with their tutors by their early teens, and I've seen no reasonable proposal for why the tutors would have had self-worth issues.
Two problems with that. First, people as a whole generally aren't good at that "self-knowledge" thing. Second, see above—there have been times and cultures where ephebophilia and borderline pedophilia has been not just accepted but expected. That points against any innate aversion. Morality is pretty much taught rather than innate in the general case, too. ~J |
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Oct 24 2006, 01:51 PM
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#75
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Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 24-October 06 Member No.: 9,693 |
I figured this belongs more over here then in the other thread Dysfunctional thread beacuse while it happened at the table it was more of a sign of something ill away from the table. Also I just posted it in the Creepiest thread on RPG.net as well.
About a year or so after I had moved out on my own I had finally managed to gather up a gaming group composed of a couple curious friends and an experienced gamer co-worker named "Mike". After a couple months of weekly games things were running really smooth, I was glad to gaming again and the group was excellent. It's important to note at this point that the group, including myself, were all male. Shortly there after another co-worker approached me and asked if she could join our game, I was more then happy to let her join in bringing our number to six. She was new to the game but so was most of my group and "Mike" had done a fantastic job helping the new guys out and I was hoping that together they could show her the ropes. She had decided to make a rogue and like a lot of rookie players she'd got it into her head to try and steal from the party. I let it slide because I figured that the others would probably catch her in the act and straighten her out in and out of character, and that would be that. What I wasn't expecting was for "Mike's" character to upon catching her in the act to explode into violence, punch her character in the face and make his own grapple checks "To grab her by the hair" then scream that he should "Rape you here and now" and then have his PC storm off leaving the other PCs behind. It was the look of smug satisfaction that was the worst, like he was proud that his lawful good paladin had just threatened to rape a party member. The session ended there and an after game apology was given by myself to the Rogue's player and I promised her that it wouldn't happen again. But even this wasn't the creepiest moment of this tale. That happened two days later when I went back to work on Monday and bumped into "Mike" at lunch who sat next to me and told me what a great time he'd had at gaming. I asked him if he thought his reaction might have been a little over the top, what with the threat of rape and all, and this was his response. "Well, I couldn't help it what with "Jason" whispering Rape her over and over in my ear." I almost wish I could've seen the look on my own face upon hearing that. I knew for a fact that "Jason" had done no such thing as I was matching expressions of concern and dismay with him, and the others in the group as the entire thing had gone down. Apparently that little voice was coming from inside his own head and not someone at the table. Yeah, that was the last time he played at my table. |
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