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> sprite loophole, is this really a loophole?
dog_xinu
post Oct 26 2006, 11:43 PM
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Ok, we ran across this.


On page 236, "Data Sprite can have any linguasoft as an optional CF".


This doesnt say any linguasoft the TM already has, or any language he/she knows, just any language. So if the TM determines that the "suspect" is talking swallee or french or arabic, the TM just has to compile a sprite with optional CF of linguasoft of _______ and he can now understand the person. Granted this is a short term translator but isnt that broken?


Please advise. What would you do? my player is looking at this and says it is legal but "wonkie". I agree. I see the loophole. And yes I am reading from v1.3 of the book. He hasnt used the loophole until we (he and I) come to an understanding/agreement of what the rules will be for my game.


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Cognitive Resona...
post Oct 26 2006, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (dog_xinu)
Ok, we ran across this.


On page 236, "Data Sprite can have any linguasoft as an optional CF".


This doesnt say any linguasoft the TM already has, or any language he/she knows, just any language. So if the TM determines that the "suspect" is talking swallee or french or arabic, the TM just has to compile a sprite with optional CF of linguasoft of _______ and he can now understand the person. Granted this is a short term translator but isnt that broken?


Please advise. What would you do? my player is looking at this and says it is legal but "wonkie". I agree. I see the loophole. And yes I am reading from v1.3 of the book. He hasnt used the loophole until we (he and I) come to an understanding/agreement of what the rules will be for my game.


dog

Can the TM actually use it or can only the data sprite use it?
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dog_xinu
post Oct 26 2006, 11:54 PM
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QUOTE
Can the TM actually use it or can only the data sprite use it?


the CF is part of the sprite but the sprite can do realtime translations for the TM. So it is indirect.


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Cheops
post Oct 26 2006, 11:55 PM
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Well, I certainly wouldn't let the TM physically speak the foreign language just because he has the sprite with him. The best he could do would be to have the sprite translate everything he said like a RL translator would. Of course, this would pose problems, such as misunderstanding or wrong context, just like real translators suffer.

It's also limited by the fact that the sprite can't physically speak without some interface. If it is text message that is no problem. However, you as a GM would have to decide what happens with voice calls or even speaker systems. There are no rules anywhere as to whether or not sprites have voices. That's GM fiat.
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Jaid
post Oct 26 2006, 11:59 PM
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i don't see it being especially broken.

once you figure out what language they're speaking in, you can also just pool the team's money and buy a linguasoft from an online site, for example.


and besides, who cares... we're talking about a technomancer here. is the technomancer broken? absolutely. why is the technomancer broken? well, *you* try and make a technomancer that can do more than one trick in the matrix without threading. (and compiling sprites to do everything for you doesn't count, either).

now try and make a hacker that can do everything in the matrix.

now try and figure out why a theoretically unlimited potential that will never be reached (on account of you are a bottomless karma sinkhole, and require a crapload of karma just to get to where the chargen hacker is, let alone *surpass* the chargen hacker or, for that matter, the hacker as he will be a couple runs later when he upgrades his commlink to response 6) is worth being a technomancer for.
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Konsaki
post Oct 27 2006, 12:04 AM
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You could just say that the sprite resides in the TM's home node (IE Brain) and translates there. This way the TM can hear and speak the needed language and since the sprite isnt a program but a resonance entity, no rules are broken.
Your TM is enough of a karma sink as it is, why do people want to shoot down every idea that makes them better by thinking out of the box, even though its legal. :S

Oh no! Your TM can speak any language out there, for the cost of using the TM's one unregistered sprite slot. She still has to guess which language it is first and then compile the sprite of rank 3 or higher to get the Linguasoft. Even then, if you want to be sure you are getting the correct translation, you have to compile a rank 5 or higher sprite since their CFs are equal to their rank.
So there is some risk involved and its not just a freebe.
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Fortune
post Oct 27 2006, 12:27 AM
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I don't think that the Technomancer can create the LinguaSoft from nothing on the spur of the moment though. In my opinion, he would still have to have acquireed the actual 'Soft in the first place, through whatever means are approriate. I think the text in the book is only stating that the Technomancer is allowed to actually program the Sprite with any LinguaSoft (that they already have access to), as that is not normally the case with other 'Softs.
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Konsaki
post Oct 27 2006, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 27 2006, 09:27 AM)
I don't think that the Technomancer can create the LinguaSoft from nothing on the spur of the moment though. In my opinion, he would still have to have acquireed the actual 'Soft in the first place, through whatever means are approriate. I think the text in the book is only stating that the Technomancer is allowed to actually program the Sprite with any LinguaSoft (that they already have access to), as that is not normally the case with other 'Softs.

The technomancer isnt threading anything, she is summoning/compiling a sprite that has the complex form on it. Then the sprite does the work of translating, not the technomancer.
The way you interpret this makes even having a sprite with this ability redundant. If the technomancer already had access to the linguasoft, why would she need to create a sprite that had the same thing?
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Dentris
post Oct 27 2006, 03:23 AM
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Because a sprite would speak the linguasoft at a level equal to his rating, right from scratch, while a complex form must be threaded. There is a huge difference between summoning a force 6 spirits (requiring, in average, 3 hits on a compiling test) and to thread a linguasoft up to rating 8 with 8 hits with a software test (8-2 for threading a CF equals the force 6 spirit)
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Jaid
post Oct 27 2006, 03:31 AM
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but that wouldn't make sense at all. you can't thread a linguasoft. and technomancers can't use non-CF programs with their brains. so having an actual linguasoft would be useless, and technomancers can't learn or thread linguasoft CFs.

seriously, you're acting like this is some sort of apocalyptic, game-ending ability. being able to communicate after playing the guessing game for languages is not going to ruin game balance anywhere even remotely near what a force 6 spirit of man overcasting force 12 powerballs can do, or for that matter it's not even anywhere near what the average joe can do with a gas grenade full of pepper punch as far as powerful is concerned.

to steal a quote from the wizards.com boards, it's a kind of nifty toy, BIJNTU (But It's Just Not That Uber)
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laughingowl
post Oct 27 2006, 05:37 AM
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In my views"

The Technomancer doesnt need to 'know' the 'soft.

However as others have mentioned, that doesnt mean the the TECHNOMANCER knows the 'soft; the sprite does.


Since the sprite and the technomancer can communicate easily (even a jammer wouldnt stop him from talking to 'his intneral commlnk/Living Persona), the sprite could easily translate on the fly. (other other said much like a living translator or even the little crappy computer tranlators you can get today).

The catch is, while talking to the 'mancer is no problem, talking to the other side is. Now I guess if the Techomancer had skill wires it might work :-) but in general the Sprite is going to need to 'talk' out something.

I would allow it to 'talk' out of any audio equipped device the Technomancer has subscribed, so it would be no problem for others to 'hear' the langauge, though it would also be clear it is most likely some kind of translator since the Technomancer isnt't speaking, the 'sprite' is.
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Fortune
post Oct 27 2006, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE (laughingowl @ Oct 27 2006, 03:37 PM)
Now I guess if the Techomancer had skill wires it might work

Why would a Technomancer, or indeed anyone need Skillwires to use a LinguaSoft (or KnowSoft, or DataSoft, or even TutorSoft)? Skillwires are only required for Active Skills.

If that isn't what you meant, then where, and in what way do the Skillwires fit in to your above theory?
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laughingowl
post Oct 27 2006, 06:00 AM
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The 'Sprite' would need the body to have skill wires so it could 'control' it.

If the Technomancer had skillwires, I would allow the sprite to 'use' them and make the Techomancer appear to speak.

Personaly though since 'active' skills need skillwires, I am not sure (although by raw they can) if a person should be able to SPEAK via a pure linguasoft, without skill wires anyways.

I tend to allow it, but regardless of the 'rating' level it will be badly accented. The linguasoft may tell you have to understand the language as well as the best professor, but that doesnt mean you mind/body no how to shape the sounds with your mouth.

(tehcnically speaking WOULD be an active skill)

The point is the SPRITE (by the rules) couldnt make the Technomancer 'speak' (some electronic speak would be needed), however, I WOULD allow that electronic speaker to be skillwires (and thus the Techomancer) if they were present.
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laughingowl
post Oct 27 2006, 06:06 AM
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Fortune:

As to knowing the 'linguasoft' none of the other CFs do you have to know to summon a sprite. No were is this stated, and given the very limited number that a Technomancer can know from the start it is fairly common way to get around the less needed skills.

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Fortune
post Oct 27 2006, 06:21 AM
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The rules are quite clear about the relationship of Skillwires to Skills. Language Skills (including Speaking, which is a Specialization) are not considered Active Skills, and therefore do not need Skillwires to use.

The write-up on LinguaSofts states that they replicate Language Skills, allowing the user to speak a foreign language as if he were a native. No foreign accent, no real problems with Lingo (another Specialization) or colloquialisms, no references to misunderstood body language (which is usually handled with the Active Social Skills, typically Etiquette).

As to the Sprite/LinguaSoft thing, I'll cede the point, as that section isn't among the ones I know as well as I should as of yet.
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laughingowl
post Oct 27 2006, 06:56 AM
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Fortune:

If you read mine for a 'person' I myself have always stated RAW requires it, though personally I house rule and get ride of the speak like native bit. I do allow a person to speak, but as pure skillsofts, dont have a way to give motor control, I dont see how (myself) they could give you the vocal control to speak like a native.

"Personaly though since 'active' skills need skillwires, I am not sure (although by raw they can) if a person should be able to SPEAK via a pure linguasoft, without skill wires anyways."

I clearly state 'RAW' they do not need skillwires and can speak fine (equal to the rating), while mostly 'flavor' this is something for me I personaly dont like, and while I allow them to speak, I overlook the one line in the fluff about speaking like a native, and without skillwires (in my games) you will have a funny accent.

Though I fully agree this is a house rule. RAW linguasoft and DNI is all you need to communicate verbally or written.
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Konsaki
post Oct 27 2006, 07:52 AM
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Hmm... I'm thinking that having a sprite run on your home node (read BRAIN) is pretty much a Direct Neural Interface, wouldnt you think?
Therefore your technomancer would be able to hear, read, write, and speak the language at the linguasoft level.
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Jaid
post Oct 27 2006, 03:58 PM
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it's not the same thing as a DNI at all. it's someone else's CF. would you allow technomancer A to use all the CFs known by technomancer B just because technomancer B has a persona on technomancer A's living persona node?

(incidentally, if you do then this makes technomancer tribes a heck of a lot more useful, since a technomancer can presumably have their persona in multiple places just like a hacker... )

in any event, notwithstanding it would make TMs a lot more scary (and TMs could use a lot more scariness) i wouldn't allow them to draw on the CFs of stuff that's hanging around on their home node.
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2bit
post Oct 27 2006, 04:41 PM
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I think it's pretty cool and really taps into the theme of the matrix as an almost metaphysical communications medium. not broken.

and tm's can't speak it, just "hear" it being interpreted.
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Lagomorph
post Oct 27 2006, 04:43 PM
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I've never found a problem with this, they're taking drain to summon a sprite, and wasting the sprite to talk to some one, and it only lasts 8 hours. And for the long list of things a TM can't do, I don't see a problem with letting them do one thing other classes/archetypes can't.
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Garrowolf
post Oct 30 2006, 07:07 AM
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I would rule that a sprite can't thread a knowledge. They could be told to go find it somewhere and bring it back but I don't even see the point in that.

What I do is say that most linguasofts and knowsofts are on the matrix and you can take an action to buy, download it and then you have it.

I also don't let them thread any skills unless they are getting it from their technomancer.

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Konsaki
post Oct 30 2006, 07:30 AM
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Um, Garrowwolf, you might want to check out page 236.
Data sprites can be created with any Linguasoft and Machine sprites can be created with any Autosoft.
Its not a question about if they can have them, the book says they can, its a question about how the linguasoft interacts with the Technomancer.

And on your last sentence: If the Technomancer already had the linguasoft, why would she need to create a sprite that had the same thing? It's redundant.
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Garrowolf
post Oct 30 2006, 07:41 AM
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I read that more to mean that they can do it not where they get it from but okay I see more what you are saying now.

I would still limit what kind they could have because all they would have to do is say they were creating one with knowledge of say passcodes into Ares servers and you start breaking the game.

Anyway I would think that since a Technomancer has mental access to his sprite he would be able to use it just as easily. Now if it is just the sprite translating and repeating it back or providing running subtitles or its acting as a linguasoft that the technomancer can use doesn't really matter because of the communications speeds involved. I would say that the technomancer thought connection would be at VR speeds all the time so that would be just as fast as the linguasoft.
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Konsaki
post Oct 30 2006, 07:49 AM
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QUOTE (Garrowolf)
I would still limit what kind they could have because all they would have to do is say they were creating one with knowledge of say passcodes into Ares servers and you start breaking the game.

Yeah, if I had a TM try and create a CF to just Know the passcodes, I would smack the player up side the head.

Now the TM could just hack the system to find the passcode and then use it to create a legit account, but they would need admin level access to do so. Hackers can do the same thing, so it isnt game breaking.
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